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Match-up Discussion GL Match-up Guide A La Bibulus

Bibulus

Noob
I'm gonna be posting my notes in this thread, feel free to critique whatever and please cite me for whatever I misinterpret. This is still a work in progress, but I'm posting it anyways because crowd sourcing is a great way to fact check things. I will be happy to cite help where it's given and maybe we can all learn something :)

Batman – Trait Universal Variable! Essentially blocking his trait gives him a free jump in even if the move was unsafe. Beware this whenever his trait is active.

Punishing Specials –

d,b+1 Grapple – Lift at all ranges is free. Outside that range just take the advantage to get zoning advantage.
Trait Active – Minigun outside of lift range.

b,f+2 Batarang – Unsafe to lift only in b+1 range... So just b+1 punish unless you want to transition behind them with MB Lift . Can't be ducked.

b,f+3 Slide – Unsafe to b+3 at all ranges but tip.

Parry - This only beats highs/overhead

String Responses - Batman can special cancel in a lot of these unsafe strings, this includes cancels into his parry.

122 – String ending with batarangs - Unsafe to lift at all ranges where you actually block it

123 – Low ending string - Safe and close range, outside overhead range inside standing 2 range.

Standing 223 will beat everything he has except block and it's safe, but you're not really at a range where you get a good mixup to . You're outside of overhead/throw range and inside of the range where you can jump at someone and apply pressure. So you can setup a jump away or try to walk into mixup range... You're not far from the range of your overhead or grab and overhead beats panic d+1's so from this range I actually like GL step up into offense.


b+23: Blocking this puts Batman at midrange right outside where lift is ideally spaced and he's at huge advantage. If he dashes in your face the only way to beat it seems to be d+1, not sure how to hit confirm off of that into serious damage. If he wants to jump in on you lift beats it, but you're not in lift range unless he moves at you so don't just commit to it.

This matchup is all about getting into lift range and outside of his normal range... He has nothing to deal with you in this zone because you can punish almost everything he does with lift and you can use lift to stop him from spamming shots. This will allow you to trade chip with him using minigun if you have to do that to keep up with a patient Deathstroke.

Midrange - Once you hit lift range, you can punish most of everything

Long range - Just low block and step forward after everything. You can dash after blocking assault rifle if he's got no meter to MB or if you just want to guess he isn't going to use it. If you're not used to reacting just take short steps forward between high shots and after blocking low ones... Focus more on not getting hit than getting max distance because if you duck all of the high shots you can open him up to a

If he's not using lots of high or jumping shots Forward jumps or High Oa's Air Rocket can be good just to get him to take to the air himself... Do not try to jump at him like it's a good strategy or he will own your face off. Just do it once or twice to mix it up to keep him in check.

Specials - Flippy Spinny thing is unsafe to lift

Machine Gun unsafe to lift. MB version is overhead!
Inside lift range the overhead whiffs on you entirely so just lift. At point blank the overhead will hit, but is still rather unsafe so b+1 him whenever you realize what happened and hope you reacted in time to no MB.

At range you can dash in immediately and be safe to other shots but lose to MB. If you want to be safe you can not dash and just walk a whole bunch after seeing MB or not.


High Shots - Safe on block
Lift Range unsafe to lift if you duck them - Opponent can MB to hit you for trying, but the risk/reward is in your favor because if you keep ducking you can punish MB high shots too :)
At range just briefly step forward and duck again after you see there is no MB.

Low Shows - Only safe shots that hit crouching block.

At lift range you can jump at him in anticipation of low shows/machine gun and take a free combo if you guess right. To antiair that jump he has to commit to unsafe moves you can punish him for with lift should you not jump.

At range just briefly step forward and duck again after you see there is no MB.

I don't really get this matchup yet... But I know MB Minigun will chew up his passive. FUCK YOUR 10 HITS OF ARMOR!

Minigun this silly dude because he gets 3 hits of armor and minigun hits 4 times.

I have yet to fight a good Raven so I don't get how her in close works... But her zoning is fairly straightforward. The general idea is the same as the rest, to maintain range where lift hits but footsies do not. So advance from range and create space from close to maintain midrange. This match's ideal spacing is inside lift range and outside singularity range, which is great for MB OR into b+13 combos.

Specials - df+2 - Squeeze - This is like Lift but 3/4 screen, slower and unsafe. Don't jump on this bitch or this move will be free if she uses it. This seems to be able to turn into a full combo from all ranges with a MB or 2... So you need to make sure you don't eat these for free once your opponent has meter. When they don't have meter it can be a good time to condition them and risk getting hit by it, the risk is less and it gives them more to think about.

Far range - Your whole goal at far range is to bait her to throw this out when you're blocking. If you do that you get a free dash and if you do it twice from full screen you're at lift range, where she can't do shit without getting lift punished.

df+1 - This is a high projectile.

Far range - If you block it and try most of anything squeeze hits you. So duck it and walk in briefly a la deathstroke, if you dash you'll be unsafe to squeeze so don't do that unless opponents aren't using the squeeze or don't have meter for MB combos.

db+1 - Empty Void - This will absorb projectiles to gain a bunch of meter and can MB to return fire with an unblockable projectile. It's the reason you don't just sit at full screen outside of squeeze range and throw stuff at her. She will get ahead in meter real fast and then if she can find time to change forms her teleport will let her get in your grill with all that meter to make it rain pain.

db+2 - Singularity - This seems to be a lot like lift with shorter range and more startup, but safe. Gives ground bounce with MB so seems to be mostly a combo tool

Midrange - This is where you can fight her with projectiles because if she does almost anything to fight back lift punishes it. This includes whiffing Empty Void and Singularity or blocking Squeeze. Her high projectile isn't punishable, but it isn't damaging either and ducking it gives you tons of advantage to minigun to stuff straightforward attacks afterwards and lift will beat everything else because you're out of range of universal armor move.

Work in progress will finish when I have time... Now off to VSM

So I got some experience vs Superman and I have the breakdown of how to deal with Superman Zoning Ver 1. I don't think you want to fight this in close, Supermans point blank pressure seems awesome. I need to have Superman in my grill for a few sets and I will do a breakdown on what happens where.

Outside of lift range you have a hard time winning in projectiles unless he spams air to ground beams. You can block one, wait for MB and then do max range db2. This is one of those matchups where that move is just amazing at it's max range because if he starts trying to close the gap or block in situations your input of the distance is reactable to a jump or a dash so you can antiair him for trying to jump at you at that range and make him block if he dashes at you quickly. Disregard all of this once you are in his rush punch range.

Rush punch range you can use minigun to control the ground, don't whiff the minigun or he will punish for free. I really like minigun at near it's max range though because it makes superman want to jump forward and do stuff when he can't reach you without airdashing. This has to make for the easiest antiair possible because with LM you can be out of range of his jumping normals. He can still jump back freely and punish both of those things.

If he wants to jump back beam consistently from this range you want to block the beam, wait for the MB and then dash at him. Once your dash takes you into lift range you can use lift to check him from doing anything. He will be able to block and punish your lift from all ranges, so don't use it unless he's being obvious about running away at bad ranges and be careful if you dash when he jumps up. If superman wants to do multiple jump back beams you CAN dash twice and be safe... But if he lands and does his rush punch you get wrecked. Just walking forward at this point gives you a SAFE advance, make sure to low block into mid block when you see him do ANYTHING from this range. Arcing beam and rush punch go into overheads and they are the only things that he has to threaten a low block from there.

Ok so when you space superman outside of b+1 range and inside lift range, his options are pretty ass. You can punish his arcing beams or he has to burn meter. You can't punish his high beam, but you can check him after ducking it with a lift if he tries anything so he can't use it to start offense predictably. His dashing punch can give you full combos on block and the MB version sets you at the range you want to see.

Minigun is boss at this range, it loses to jumping stuffs like the ever popular airdash over your head for ambiguous drop ins. But all that jumping BS loses to lift as long as you got initiative by him doing something. I actually do a lot of jump back from this range,

Special Move Breakdown -

bf+3 - This is supermans dashing punch, it hits mid and has a MB version that strings 2 overheads and spaces you out on block and gives you enough advantage to check whatever he tries with a lift if he's feeling froggy. This move is unsafe to b+1 with no MB. Well it just so happens that this move can check you for dashing into half screen faster than his projectiles, so learn the range for this move so you know where to stop dashing and start walking at Superman. Baiting him into doing it when you're blocking either burns up his health or meter and both feed into your overall strategy.

db1 - Arcing beams hits crouching and has a huge hitbox as well as an air version and a MB that turns overhead. This is UNSAFE to lift at all ranges, but MB version can get you lit up for trying to punish and feels like advantage for him if you block it.

db1 (Air) - This is like the ground version... Only it's more unsafe. If superman wants to spam this you can just block it, block overhead briefly to make sure MB doesn't check you, and then dash at him for free. If he does it high in the air, you will dash and have advantage so you can check him with a lift if he tries to do anything. You can also use db+2 to check him for doing anything after you block a high jump beam from anywhere.

db3 - High beam is all I can think when I see this one... The recovery of this thing is AMAZING! It's one of the few high projectiles I can't duck and punish on reaction from point blank. If you block it Superman has an advantage and can punish you for trying to dash at him from full screen. This move is the sole reason you want to block low at range, if you make it whiff you have plenty of time to move before another projectile can hit you, but if you block he's got you where he wants you and you need to play like it or get bopped.
 

Bibulus

Noob
Changelog
4/25 - Added Deathstroke info (specific answers to his zoning from multiple ranges)
Added Raven
4/26 - SUUUUUPERMAN! I did a breakdown of his zoning, I hope I didn't miss any midrange tools he has.
 

Bibulus

Noob
Yes, same Bibulus.

I decided to make this after seeing the other lantern match-up threads were just about making numbers instead of understanding matchups in a way people can digest easily. I usually make my notes private, but why not just let the tech out there?
 

chores

bad at things
Yes, same Bibulus.

I decided to make this after seeing the other lantern match-up threads were just about making numbers instead of understanding matchups in a way people can digest easily. I usually make my notes private, but why not just let the tech out there?
Thanks for doing it. The Batman and Dstroke notes are really nice and this is better/more in depth than the other matchup threads.
 

Bibulus

Noob
If people want mods can relabel this a guide so people can know I'm not here to tell you what matchups are good or bad for you and just focus on how to fight them. I feel like those guys are doing it backwards... I don't care about the numbers if I don't get how to play in the matchup.

I'm going to start adding a lot of base level observations about characters just to fill in the roster and I'm going to break down specific characters whenever I do it myself.

Batman is a tough one because GL has nothing to armor through the 3rd hit of b+23 and actually hit a dude... Like maybe MB into dash to pressure in his face, but then why wouldn't you just push block? I'm trying to find a practice partner to help me learn that matchup better. I feel like you want to stay just outside of footsie range and run jump in mixups... But I haven't practiced the combos off of his overhead

Deathstroke notes are almost all thanks to Jon Nitti... I played that dude a few hours at a session and for the first like 10-15 matches just got bopped until I figured out what answers do and don't work. That contesting the air thing doesn't do so well because his air shots are too good at air to air where GL excels on air to ground... Then you consider every wrong guess on those resets you to full screen. I mean you can try and use bf+3 MB to contest the air, but that pushes him to full screen so you are setting him up for more spacing. I wouldn't unless I had a sick life lead and a ton of meter.
 

zaf

professor
I definitely do mu charts the way you do them. I prefer this over a number and slight description.

I love to learn the in and outs of all mus with one character.

You are also one of the few people who actually write up on how to handle raven rather then complain about her. I dont mind playing with ya to delve into the GL raven mu.
 

Bibulus

Noob
I dunno about good Raven just yet... The ones I play online I just bait the squeeze and then rock her face off. Just walk for little periods of time and be lame

Does Black Adam have anything to deal with air bf+3 low to the ground? That seems to bust his face in for trying to zone
 

REDRUM

www.twitter.com/redrum26
vs Doomsday , yes MiniGun his Trait for sure and you can blow his up Supernova (The "Skydrop" move is very very easy to punish with a b3+mb and or forward dash before it hits for a full bnb combo)...
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Yes, same Bibulus.

I decided to make this after seeing the other lantern match-up threads were just about making numbers instead of understanding matchups in a way people can digest easily. I usually make my notes private, but why not just let the tech out there?
I definitely do mu charts the way you do them. I prefer this over a number and slight description.
I 100% agree with this -- I don't think there's any meaning in numbers right now. So my observations:

Deathstroke: I've taken to starting this matchup off by getting in the quickest way possible. As soon as the "bell" rings, I move in. Sometimes this means a jump-3; if he moves at the start of the first match, then I will lift him straightaway at the start of the next. But overall, I don't let him get away.

His lack of quick normals in close means that he can be easily harassed. So once you bait and block anything, you can now start pressure and it's no fun for him.

If he sticks to mostly grounded gunshots, hit him with an air rocket (be wary of his grenade if he has a lot of meter), and then if he tries an instant air gunshot after that, which he often will, move in underneath it.

Superman: GL has tools to deal with nearly everything Superman has. I'd heard that GL could be zoned out, but it doesn't appear to be true. At fullscreen, if he starts using rapid-fire Heat Zaps, if you block the first, you can trade with the next one with a regular straight rocket. In the trade, he will stagger back and recover more slowly than you, allowing you to get a dash and maybe a jump rocket in as well. Air Heat Vision is hugely negative on block, so if you're all the way at fullscreen, you can block it and then move up.

Anywhere inside close to fullscreen, you can counter his air laser with a jumping rocket. The timing is a bit weird, but basically if you wait for him to go up, and then jump, you will jump the active frames of the air laser as it comes up and hit him out of the air. This also applies to air dashes as well; if you time it right, you will ruin his attempts at trying to air dash in either direction. Forward, he runs into the missle; backward, he comes down on it as he falls.

He has a hard time playing frame-games with GL due to GL's 7-10 frame normals, and he has to be really careful with his advancing strings, because any whiff = an instant whiff punish from lift.

Grundy: You can hop around like a fool and annoy him with rockets within a certain range. Feel free to move around like a crazed hyena since you can whiff punish anything Grundy throws out for a good amount of damage. Zone him mercilessly.

Lex Luther: Bait, block, and punish. If you are too offensively reckless, he will check you with Corps Charge; so let him do the charging and punish him when you block it. Also, if he activates his trait, minigun him immediately if you're in range. Outside of lift range, hit him with a rocket whenever he puts an orb onscreen; this way you'll trade and he won't be able to get his trap followups off.

GL also makes it hard for lex to use his j3 midscreen, because of the lift. Once you block anything in close, you gain free pressure due to the superior speed on GL's normals.

Be aware that when Lex has his trait active, the armor will take the hit from lift; so if he has trait and jumps in on you, do not attempt an AA lift or air-to-air anything because you'll eat the jump-in and the full combo.

---------------------------

In general, when people respect lift, they are open for jump-ins (unless they have an amazing, quick AA option like Aquaman). Also, since people tend to block low a lot against GL due to b1, they are often open for j3 starters, and you can abuse that in a lot of cases. Also, people blocking in anticipation of b1 leaves them open for throws. The key is to keep people guessing at what your next move will be.

A meaty j3 will also stuff a number of a wakeup attempts. Not all wakeups, so you have to test it out; but I've been able to reset a lot of people after a knockdown with j3's timed to hit them on the first available frame.

Don't let people zone you out; keep a rocket on screen at all times and try to at least get trades, because trading with a number of characters allows you to move in a bit on hit. Know what GL's 'annoying range' is vs. certain characters (where he can sit and jump-rocket and minigun for free) and stay in it.
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
How do people get around Sinestro playing keep away with his projectiles? I have the hardest time getting in and I find a decent Sinestro player much more difficult than Deathstroke.
 

Jeffreys

Grundy think you handsome!
As A Grundy main I feel GL has all the tools to deal with him, unless Grundy can get the defense chain grab on GL near the beginning of the match (which reduces chip damage 10 fold) then GL can just zone him to death. #stupidfuckingchaingun

Yet I need to see a top player like Tyrant who is good at Walking Corpse Cancels to understand this matchup better.
 

Bibulus

Noob
How do people get around Sinestro playing keep away with his projectiles? I have the hardest time getting in and I find a decent Sinestro player much more difficult than Deathstroke.
Sinestro feels easy to deal with... Just learn how to see his overhead projectile and crouch block. I felt like the worst point of playing that matchup at range was not being able to read the overhead, this leads to walking backwards and giving up ground when you think it might come. If he whiffs his high projectile or you block any others you can dash at him and be safe enough to block. Once I adopted that basic strategy I bopped every Sinestro I have played
 

Trip Se7ens

Nom Nom
Sinestro feels easy to deal with... Just learn how to see his overhead projectile and crouch block. I felt like the worst point of playing that matchup at range was not being able to read the overhead, this leads to walking backwards and giving up ground when you think it might come. If he whiffs his high projectile or you block any others you can dash at him and be safe enough to block. Once I adopted that basic strategy I bopped every Sinestro I have played
My biggest problem is that over head projectile, like you said. I dash, scared he is gonna overhead so I try to block instead it does the high projectile and I lost half the ground I just made and then I slip up and get hit by the boulder and I'm back at square 1.
 

Bibulus

Noob
Just walk forward and block low when you see anything. If you see him pull down on nothing it's overhead
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
So something else I learned about the Superman matcup: if he does Air Heat Vision, and you have meter and you are out of lift range, but not all the way to fullscreen, you can block the laser, and then MB rocket him into a lift as he comes down. If you want to spend 2 bars you can combo this. Yet another tool that makes Superman's life difficult.
 

Bibulus

Noob
You don't necessarily need to spend 2 bars to combo there... MB OR into b13 connects from really far away. I still prefer 2 bars there though because it sets up in 223xx4xxdb2