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Character Design/Depth Tier List

At first I liked Reiko's design but as I played him more and more he just seemed increasingly incoherent and thrown together. He's a weird mish-mash of stuff and has no identity.

I'd say identity is a big problem in the game in general. NRS seems to have struggled worse with archetypes than ever before in MK1.
You’re right on the money! I feel a little gouged for the dlc Kameos. You can’t play reiko without tremor really tremor actually glues his moves together. They should either complete the characters or bring parity to the kameos.

Coming from other games like Guilty Gear Strive, Arc Sys have greatly expanded that game since it was released. Street Fighter V that started that whole trend of stripping down game mechanics also received many updates that fleshed it out. Its last evo was incredibly hype. I hope NRS can thoughtfully rebalance and power up these characters so it really feels like mortal kombat.
 
I hope NRS can thoughtfully rebalance and power to these characters so it really feels like mortal kombat
Very much agreed. I think it'd just take some tweaks to the characters but nothing insane. SF5 was able to pull it off...but it WILL require a nose-to-the-grindstone attitude. We saw how that paid off in SFV though and the dividends paid out in SF6. I was VERY disappointed 5 at launch but Capcom recovered and made good on it then delivered with 6. If NRS follows the same arc it's not ideal (releasing a bad product is NEVER ideal) but it would earn trust back.
 
Curious what people think about Mileena. She's absolutely tournament viable in this build of the game, Mileena players have won offline events running Lao and Goro. A few Kameos seem to work well for her though I think Lao especially synergies with her because he gives her loopable Oki. The nerfs to Lao's hat charge limited Mileena's gameplan, because having it on the screen functions a lot like Millia's disc in Guilty Gear, creating a high low guessing game for the opponent as they're waking up. Without the hat available, Mileena has to play reactive, which isn't fun because without meter she has no full screen projectile. Although she is encouraged to be mid screen, her main hitconfirmable approach is 1,2 (which can be flawless blocked). She has other important strings (F242, F144) both have uses, like F242 is a good Oki tool, and F144 pops the opponent up for a potential Kameo attack but they're also limited. F144 could be better but it only comes out on hit. Only a few of her lows come out on whiff. Lao’s hat covers this weekness but she feels the nerfs to his recharge rate. When he’s not available it means you have to play reactive. 1, 2 is your main whiff punish tool.

It looks like she's set up for loopable offense, but in general it can feel like winning or losing is all in how good the opponent is at blocking 1, 2. In that way, she's limited. Obviously not to the degree of Sub and Scorpion but with Mileena you can see how they tried to muzzle her.

There is an overall game design philosophy I think and it's to have reduced character power. It also means despite having GREAT tools like F4 or B3,4 (this one gives deadly plus frames for another okizeme attack), she doesn't get to use them very often. She doesn't have good conditioning tools to throw good players off of 1,2. It even has a gap that can be flawlessly blocked. Maybe with another string or adjustments to F244 (making it hit confirmable on the last hit or letting it come out on whiff) would help her.
 
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Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Curious what people think about Mileena. She's absolutely tournament viable in this build of the game, Mileena players have won offline events running Lao and Goro. A few Kameos seem to work well for her though I think Lao especially synergies with her because he gives her loopable Oki. The nerfs to Lao's hat charge limited Mileena's gameplan, because having it on the screen functions a lot like Millia's disc in Guilty Gear, creating a high low guessing game for the opponent as they're waking up. Without the hat available, Mileena has to play reactive, which isn't fun because without meter she has no full screen projectile. Although she is encouraged to be mid screen, her main hitconfirmable approach is 1,2 (which can be flawless blocked). She has other important strings (F242, F144) both have uses, like F242 is a good Oki tool, and F144 pops the opponent up for a potential Kameo attack but they're also limited. F144 could be better but it only comes out on hit. Only a few of her lows come out on whiff. Lao’s hat covers this weekness but she feels the nerfs to his recharge rate. When he’s not available it means you have to play reactive. 1, 2 is your main whiff punish tool.

It looks like she's set up for loopable offense, but in general it can feel like winning or losing is all in how good the opponent is at blocking 1, 2. In that way, she's limited. Obviously not to the degree of Sub and Scorpion but with Mileena you can see how they tried to muzzle her.

There is an overall game design philosophy I think and it's to have reduced character power. It also means despite having GREAT tools like F4 or B3,4 (this one gives deadly plus frames for another okizeme attack), she doesn't get to use them very often. She doesn't have good conditioning tools to throw good players off of 1,2. It even has a gap that can be flawlessly blocked. Maybe with another string or adjustments to F244 (making it hit confirmable on the last hit or letting it come out on whiff) would help her.
Mileena/Lao is probably my most played pair, so here is my two cents:
I think Mileena is built around loopable offense and unpredictability. The flawless block in 1,2 is easily countered by ending the string early into Lao hat, commiting to the full overhead last hit, ending the string at any point into low sai AND (my personal favorite) ending the string into EX straight sai toss, as most people will simply NOT block the overhead teleport, or be caught by surprise and not capitalize into a punish. Doing standing 1 into a grab or F4 (overhead) will also caught many people that are eager to flawless block. You then create a scenario where people will try to duck the grab, or anticipate the overhead and try to punish it with a grab (since it is safe). Again this turns into a mindgame, as you can now do S1 into F122 for a full combo, or do S1 into F4, then immediately microduck into another 1,2 string for a full punish. If you mix all of that, it basically becomes a game of reading your opponents usual patterns of blocking and exploting it.

Midscreen, you have an excellent anti-air in the form of S1, which is also a very fast (and long reaching) button. Ball roll is also excellent for characters that like to do a safe attack, backdash and try to fish for a poke and punish you. Just block the first "bait" attack and ball roll, they will be caught during the backdash - however, good players will quickly adapt to this and punish you HARD for any blocked rolls. A lao hat being held on the ground will also allow you to close distance very fast, either by using ball roll or teleport, both of which are made safe on block because of the threat of the hat.

Something I never see any Mileenas doing is, when you have the opponent in the corner, do a mixing sequence of:
-S1 into low sai
-1,2 into low hat/low sai
  • F122 after a low sai that connects
  • F4 after a low sai that connects
  • S1 into grab.
  • 1,2 into EX sai toss.
Mixing all of those at random intervals will keep your opponent getting hit/knocked down, randomly having to guess between blocking standing, blocking standing then low, ducking while not blocking or poking - and Mileena is ONLY unsafe if a low sai is blocked. Bonus points that the F4 breaks most armored wakeups.

With everything said, Mileena is absolutely her best when she keeps the opponent guessing high, low, overhead and grab, while it loops into itself and is made safe by kameos, while ALSO being excellent for space control.

Also, F2433 is severely underrated, as it hits low twice on the last two hits and is also safe - you can also microduck after doing it and punishing a grab for a full combo, if people are not caught off-guard by the last hit.
 
Your design works, You have an identity:
-Quan Chi (Thanks Zone of Waste!)
-Nitara
-Ashrah
-Kenshi
-Johnny Cage
-Liu Kang
-Mileena
-Kitana
-Reiko: Similar to "Let's give Cetrion a Teleport", "Let's give Reiko who wants to be up close one of the best projectiles in the game" Dumb, Reliant on Tremor but he has an identity.

Baraka: He's shallow but he DOES have a function/gimmick and that's to bleed you out and chip you to death. If you could just give him a bit more sauce combo wise or reduce the damage scaling he got from the Cyrax patch, he'd be up at the top as a working design.

You're ok:
-Geras
-Kung Lao
-Li Mei
-Smoke
-General Shao (Wish he had his classic Shoulder Charge)

Reptile: It's not that I want him to be a stronger version of Smoke with his invisiblity, I miss his Forceball game from MKX. If you could stop default+enhanced forceballs mid travel, tweak the recovery from EX Forceballs, fix the gap from b3 string...idk make his f31 a mid Overhead. We are in business.

Ehhh:
-Sub-Zero
-Scorpion
-Shang Tsung
-Rain: I can see what the devs intended for you but you're also not a threat.
-Sindel: Without Kung Lao Kameo what are you?
-Tanya: Without Goro Kameo what are you?
-All I see from Raiden is Storm Cell some strings and Electric Fly, I couldn't tell you what else he's doing aside from ridiculous damage. Personally I'd want to see him get his Electric Orbs upgraded to function like his MKX Static Traps. That was the most interesting gameplan Raiden had.

What are you even meant to do:
-Havik: This is a character all about Chaos and yet he feels half assed and very limited

No comment on Guests as I will not touch them.
 
-Havik: This is a character all about Chaos and yet he feels half assed and very limited
Yes, thank you for saying this. I actually think this has always been a Havik problem since day 1 and I don't mean in MK1. He's always been a cool character with zero in-game identity when it comes to how he fights.
 

LEGEND

YES!
Your design works, You have an identity:
-Quan Chi (Thanks Zone of Waste!)
-Nitara
-Ashrah
-Kenshi
-Johnny Cage
-Liu Kang
-Mileena
-Kitana
-Reiko: Similar to "Let's give Cetrion a Teleport", "Let's give Reiko who wants to be up close one of the best projectiles in the game" Dumb, Reliant on Tremor but he has an identity.

Baraka: He's shallow but he DOES have a function/gimmick and that's to bleed you out and chip you to death. If you could just give him a bit more sauce combo wise or reduce the damage scaling he got from the Cyrax patch, he'd be up at the top as a working design.

You're ok:
-Geras
-Kung Lao
-Li Mei
-Smoke
-General Shao (Wish he had his classic Shoulder Charge)

Reptile: It's not that I want him to be a stronger version of Smoke with his invisiblity, I miss his Forceball game from MKX. If you could stop default+enhanced forceballs mid travel, tweak the recovery from EX Forceballs, fix the gap from b3 string...idk make his f31 a mid Overhead. We are in business.

Ehhh:
-Sub-Zero
-Scorpion
-Shang Tsung
-Rain: I can see what the devs intended for you but you're also not a threat.
-Sindel: Without Kung Lao Kameo what are you?
-Tanya: Without Goro Kameo what are you?
-All I see from Raiden is Storm Cell some strings and Electric Fly, I couldn't tell you what else he's doing aside from ridiculous damage. Personally I'd want to see him get his Electric Orbs upgraded to function like his MKX Static Traps. That was the most interesting gameplan Raiden had.

What are you even meant to do:
-Havik: This is a character all about Chaos and yet he feels half assed and very limited

No comment on Guests as I will not touch them.
I'd say Shang has a functional identity/gameplan. He's just bad lol

He feels like the beta version of a character where their frames/recovery are all over the place because no real testing has been done yet.
 
Yes, thank you for saying this. I actually think this has always been a Havik problem since day 1 and I don't mean in MK1. He's always been a cool character with zero in-game identity when it comes to how he fights.
His identity is more visual with the whole body breaking thing, but I would say “bruiser” is the intention. Which makes wacky fireballs an odd choice
 

LEGEND

YES!
Havik not fitting into an archetype is on brand. Choas is unpredictable and without explanation.

"What is he supposed to do, why does he have this?" Exactly.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Havik not fitting into an archetype is on brand. Choas is unpredictable and without explanation.

"What is he supposed to do, why does he have this?" Exactly.
But he does fit an archetype: zombie grappler/juggernaut with a somewhat deceng zoning. He's pretty much just Meat from MK Armageddon lol
 

UghGetOuttaHere

Number Cruncher. Jack of All Trades.
A great idea for discussion. I love viewing games in fun unique vacuums
Below is my tier list:

S: Quan Chi, Kenshi, Shang Tsung
A: General Shao, Smoke, Geras, Nitara, Ashrah,
B: Rain, Li Mei, Havik, Sindel, Reiko, Johnny Cage, Peacemaker
C: Baraka, Kitana, Reptile, Raiden, Liu Kang, Mileena
F: Omni Man, Scorpion, Sub Zero, Tanya, Kunglao
Hmm insightful and rather accurate to my experience.
How I would adjust:
(+1) Geras, Rain, Tanya, Sindel
(-1) Shao, Ashrah, Reiko, JC, Baraka, Raiden, Lui Kang
(-2) Peacemaker
 
A great idea for discussion. I love viewing games in fun unique vacuums

Hmm insightful and rather accurate to my experience.
How I would adjust:
(+1) Geras, Rain, Tanya, Sindel
(-1) Shao, Ashrah, Reiko, JC, Baraka, Raiden, Lui Kang
(-2) Peacemaker
I feel somewhat similar but i'm not bumping rain or tanya.

Conceptually the tools are there, playstyle wise it's not. At the end of the day their actual playstyle doesn't revolve much around all the neat shit they could do, unlike say geras who can actually use all his wacky shit in a match.
 

UghGetOuttaHere

Number Cruncher. Jack of All Trades.
I feel somewhat similar but i'm not bumping rain or tanya.

Conceptually the tools are there, playstyle wise it's not. At the end of the day their actual playstyle doesn't revolve much around all the neat shit they could do, unlike say geras who can actually use all his wacky shit in a match.
Lol Tanya is fair... no one can deny shes F2 the character. Rain was VERY difficult for me to properly get the hang of.
 
Love the idea for this thread. Imagine trying to have this discussion about mk11 haha.

And sorry if this is too off topic, but I feel like doomsday is the definition of a simple character. But watching whiteboi back in the day play him with the variety of oki set ups depending on his opponent’s character I feel like even he had more depth than like Baraka in mk1. Or the vast majority of the cast from mk11.

Now in nrs games I so often feel like after I get a knockdown I do…nothing. Because there’s nothing to do. Quan has helped remedy this but yeah. I know not every character is a set up character but still. I felt this way in sf6 too. Combo, corner push, knockdown, nothing/wait for opponent to wake up attack or try to jump out.

maybe I just need a break from fighters/mk tho lol
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
Johnny is also badly designed by the fact that his entire gimmick of Superstar mode is pretty much not utilized.
This seeems weird to me. You're docking points for something that has no impact on the game.

Johnny has a very coherent and well thought out kit, which you would presumably rate quite highly... but because NRS added a fun trolly suoerfluous mechanic on top of the well thought out kit, that has zero impact on the game, he goes from well designed to badly designed? And if NRS just cut this fun bonus feature, he would go back to being well designed?

That doesn't seem like a useful way to judge design.

I'd say identity is a big problem in the game in general. NRS seems to have struggled worse with archetypes than ever before in MK1.
Really? You think identities are worse than mk11? Every character in that game felt so similar.
 
This seeems weird to me. You're docking points for something that has no impact on the game.
It's an entire sub-system for Johnny that, as you said, basically has no impact on the game.

Unused elements of a design are bad. So yes I'm docking points for them doing so bad a job designing Johnny and the star system that they don't meaningfully interact. It reminds me of the 3d games having multiple fighting styles...that often went totally unused because one fighting style would be utterly worthless from a gameplay perspective.
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
It’s something developed that could have been something else. From a business standpoint it’s wasted money
Sure, I agree with this.

But that's a problem with NRS being wasteful, not a problem with Johnny's design. Either he's a complete character or he's not, the rest is NRS throwing money away.

Edit: and that's all assuming NRS intended for hype to be competitively useful. If they put it in as a casual/troll mechanic on purpose, then it's working just fine.
 
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haketh

Noob
IDK ashy people are putting Omni Man low on this, I feel like every time I fight or watch a competent one, I’m seeing them have different game plans and approaches & his conversion depth is pretty deep
 
Sure, I agree with this.

But that's a problem with NRS being wasteful, not a problem with Johnny's design. Either he's a complete character or he's not, the rest is NRS throwing money away.

Edit: and that's all assuming NRS intended for hype to be competitively useful. If they put it in as a casual/troll mechanic on purpose, then it's working just fine.
But realistically speaking it really shouldnt be considered a troll mechaninc,and i dont know why johnny players dont use it.Its relatively practical ans has numerouse ways to be activated into,further amplified by kameos as well.

on his own midscreen you can go into it from any hit into edxb3 and continue the full hype combo.
Any hit into jade glaive can go into fully hype combo by doing s4xxhype cancle
If you are using stryker or kano,you can confirm any hit into command dash and kano knives/stryker granades,bypassing the safeguard and then s4xxhype cancle going into the full hype combo.
S4xxhype cancle as a punish is also very much practical.

i think people just get carried away by johnny rushdown they dont even think about building hype meter and therfore dont use it.Which is kinda funny considering that you can pretty effeictively build it up during neutral posturing and evading projectiles with the nutpunch taunt.
 

Bloodfang

The Immortal Tiger
Scorpion was clearly designed to be brutal anti-air. In the air, he can fuck you up near full screen for full combo punishes. On the first kombat kast they were talking about the air combo options giving air-footsies new neutral potential. They probably expected Nitara to be super popular given how many begged for her return. Except none of that happened. Going into the air is unsafe because you can't block so most people barely do it. Scorpion is designed to dominate a meta that doesn't exist, lol. Inexperienced or reckless players (I'm the latter) are what he crushes but not much else. With air combat being way less meta than NRS expected, Scorpion is just a newb-gate/"play reckless get wrecked" character like he always is.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
AND (my personal favorite) ending the string into EX straight sai toss, as most people will simply NOT block the overhead teleport, or be caught by surprise and not capitalize into a punish.
Does this actually work on people? Once I realized you could upblock this on reaction, I've probably punished any EX straight sai attempt 9/10 times at least. I don't think that's even close to a real option tbh.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Does this actually work on people? Once I realized you could upblock this on reaction, I've probably punished any EX straight sai attempt 9/10 times at least. I don't think that's even close to a real option tbh.
It does! But not because of the overhead itself. If you toss ex straight sai on neutral (specially from full screen), it is painfully easy to just block then upblock and punish. However, if you are doing 1,2 into ex sai toss, people will get punished because they are either trying to flawless block the third hit of 1,2 (and will eat the first sai hit anyways), or because they are used to 1,2 pressure having at most 4 hits (the first three from the full string and the last, fourth hit from either a lao hat, a low sai or a regular straight sai). 99% of the time they will let go of block after they block the sai and get caught by the overhead OR block everything but not have a quick enough reaction to punish, because they were not expecting that. Of course, you might find the very rare player that will punish this, but it is definitely not common.