My liu kang mu chart

dribirut said:

Gives people a (legit) exuse when they lose

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I can 21 out of ex elbow if you standing 3 after with liu if I'm p1 but I cant if I'm p2.

In a reptile mirror elbow dash p1 wins.

In a lk mirror if we're are neutral player one has the option to 21 and it beAts jumps back 3 and 21, but p2 can't. That's a huge adv.

dribirut said:

Pecks you are wrong about some matchups

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Cyber sub?

FOREVER KING said:

Do you guys honestly think Player 1 advantage makes that big of a difference? In my 4 years of playing MK9 competitively, I've never really had any noticeable issues with Player 1 advantage. And I've probably played damn near 30000 matches of MK9 lmao

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@dribirut
It really depends on the mu

Literally if Shang is pressuring me and I read double knees I get a full combo if I 21 but vice versa If I'm p2. Do you not understand how game changing this is?? It forces one character to poke. Literally it means all I have to worry about is ex SS or a d3. It's a big diff. I'm not saying that makes it 6-4/5-5 on that point, I'm just attempting to illustrate that is a largely valid thing and greatly changes a portion of the mu. If you want I can right a page for each matchup to better contextualize my points. That way no one woyld even read it.

FOREVER KING said:

Do you guys honestly think Player 1 advantage makes that big of a difference? In my 4 years of playing MK9 competitively, I've never really had any noticeable issues with Player 1 advantage. And I've probably played damn near 30000 matches of MK9 lmao

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depends on characters i guess to for example cage mirror its huge . p1 has priority . kl mirror example p1 21 21 21. p2 option spin or poke . as he cant 21 as he will get hit . just small example . or spin same time p1 will hit first . p1 advantage for cage . the cage mirror match changes to 5.5 as f3 is more limited to your game up close and s1

FOREVER KING said:

Do you guys honestly think Player 1 advantage makes that big of a difference? In my 4 years of playing MK9 competitively, I've never really had any noticeable issues with Player 1 advantage. And I've probably played damn near 30000 matches of MK9 lmao

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Player 1 can make a big difference in a lot of matches. It's something that I feel the majority of MK9 players didn't pay enough attention to imo. However, I have seen a fair amount of people make good use of it in certain match ups e.g Peckapowa.

The Sonya Cage match up is a good example of where player 1 makes a big difference. If Sonya is player 1 I personally think she wins 6.5-3.5 as opposed to 6-4 if she is player 2.

This is mainly because Sonya's d1 will beat Cages f3 after the cartwheel (-3) on block or after MS overhead (-3) which creates a lot bigger guessing game for cage. This is just a couple of examples in this match up. Cage can't just wait to block the d1 after the MS overhead or cartwheel and counterpoke it with f3/b3 as he is at a huge risk of being hit by d1 ex cartwheel which can launch him for 32% plus guaranteed chip damage. D1 cartwheel is pretty hard to punish on reaction anyway, you kind of have to read it.

Anyone who has a good understanding of this match up will know that it is significantly harder for Cage if Sonya is player 1.

STRYKIE said:

That's the thing though, Kenshi will never ever have a reason to give a shit about flying kick, enhanced or not. If you're gonna use meter it's probably more worth saving it for X-ray, perhaps just for the threat of it, even though it normally whiffs up close, it will hit Kenshi at any range, even crouching, and gives you a good chunk of unbreakable damage. If you have the life lead from there and Kenshi has to mount the offense, low dragon fire ducks under flurry, and it's a crap shoot as to whether or not TKS will get stuffed in a trade.

Also about reflect, I can't vouch for sure if this comes into play with Liu, but one thing I noticed that KH Cat does in the Kenshi/Kabal matchup is alternating the height of IAGB very slightly, making anticipatory reflects whiff and whiff punishes accordingly. Instant air dragon fire actually has slightly faster trajectory, so it's worth a shot.

I've personally had no problems with the matchup from Kenshi's perspective, but I still feel it's one of the more mis-approached matchups in the game, if not the most.

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At the highest level this matchup is a nightmare for Liu Kang, he heavily relies on jumping.

Dude, the game isn't out yet...wait...

Hitoshura said:

Noob vs Kang is kind of even. With proper spacing and reads he can get ahead of liu kang, and his pressure isn't that good to shut Noob down. When I wasn't awful at the game Peanuts and I would go back and fourth in matches and what not. Definitely not one sided.

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Noob's Risk/Reward versus Liu Kang's risk/reward is incomparable which makes the MU in Liu's favor. Noob can trade projectiles with Liu, but if Liu gets life lead, it becomes very difficult for Noob to get the damage in to match. I'd consider it 6-4 in Liu's favor, 5.5-4.5 when Noob is played at highest level (Same with Liu).

It's funny because at the very beginning of the game, I thought the matchup was 7-3 in Noob's favor and people online would always pick Noob to counterpick Liu, lol.

xHolmesyx said:

At the highest level this matchup is a nightmare for Liu Kang, he heavily relies on jumping.

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This ^

I still feel the cold hard sting of my loss against Pig of the Hut. This demonstrates fairly well what the matchup looks like. Please forgive the input errors and overall bad damage decisions...This was my first major back when the game was still fairly new, and my converter for the PS2 controller was also somewhat acting up (Not to mention I didn't realize the power of standing 2 at the time)


The matchup can get so bad that Liu will become afraid to even approach and pretty much has to jump-in delayed air fireballs to bait Kenshi into making mistakes. @Titanman_88 knows how rough this matchup can be for Liu as well.

Liu is pretty free for Smoke. Liu Kang players who thing Liu beats him are in some serious denial.

RiBBz22 said:

Liu is pretty free for Smoke. Liu Kang players who thing Liu beats him are in some serious denial.

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Liu is pretty free for smoke? I beg to differ. Please explain.

RiBBz22 said:

Liu is pretty free for Smoke. Liu Kang players who thing Liu beats him are in some serious denial.

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For me I'd say it's 5.5-4.5 in Smoke's favor. Not brutal in his favor but Smoke is just overall much more mobile in the matchup. I wouldn't necessarily call it free unless the Liu you're playing is free.

I feel that Smoke might beat Loo Cang. Also, any time Smokes D1 is blocked, regardless of whether it's canceled or not, Kang can full combo punish it with b3. Smoke better play keep away and use his smoke cloud to bait a whiff, or to get away and throw smoke bombs. Kang cannot throw projectiles or he gets parried. Kangs fastest move is 7 frames I think and Smokes is 6 frames, so after a blocked b3,1,2 Smoke would counter hit kangs d3 giving him an advantage so Kang better respect Smokes normals in that situation or take the risk that he won't poke.

KH_Seraph said:

For me I'd say it's 5.5-4.5 in Smoke's favor. Not brutal in his favor but Smoke is just overall much more mobile in the matchup. I wouldn't necessarily call it free unless the Liu you're playing is free.

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Yeah I think it is 6-4. I am just saying free because saying things are free are super juicy.

xHolmesyx said:

Liu is pretty free for smoke? I beg to differ. Please explain.

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Check the Smoke forums. Nothing has changed.

RiBBz22 said:

Check the Smoke forums. Nothing has changed.

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Just checked the smoke forums and Wafflez' match up chart said its 5-5, so what are you referring to here?

There is no way Liu Kang vs Kabal is that bad...

You can pretty much OUTZONE Kabal and even are able to block in time to punish an ex dash through a fireball depending on where kabal is on screen. You just have to be careful with your pressure if you go in and try to play rushdown on kabal b/c of the ex dash.

xHolmesyx said:

Check the smoke forums? What does that even mean lol. At least back up your statement with some valid points rather then just saying look at the smoke forums. If you're possibly referring to Wafflez saying it's 6-4 in a match up chart is good proof, that's ridiculous. I doubt Waffles has played many Liu Kangs that play that match up correctly.

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Yeah I agree with you that @GGA Wafflez is a total fraud. I think he thinks the MU is even anyways.

RiBBz22 said:

Yeah I agree with you that @GGA Wafflez is a total fraud. I think he thinks the MU is even anyways.

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I didn't say that he was a fraud?

@Peckapowa, can you plz explain why would Ermac tp vs LK's fireballs? I can just dash d3, avoid the fireball and check you with a TKP afterwards. Saying that its 6-4 cause Ermac will always tp against LK's fireball is not the best way to judge the MU.

Imo its an even MU cause Ermac can check LK most of the times when not close, and there is not much LK can do to counter that. Up close LK wins, hands down, but he must first approach Ermac and that is no easy task. At sweep range Ermac has better tools than LK (instant air-blast, d3, d4), so he can check him from that distance as well. Plus dont forget Ermac's huge damage output.

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Can someone explain why Liu Kang was not seen much in high level play?

xHolmesyx said:

I didn't say that he was a fraud?

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Oh, then we disagree because @GGA Wafflez is as fraudulent as it gets.

I love matchup chart discussions because you can just feel how passive aggressive people become

I cant agree with sub zero being in a disadvantage against liu since he can outzone kang. I would say they are even. Subs ice ball beats kangs low fireball. I dont know imo sub is even with our shaolin fella

xHolmesyx said:

At the highest level this matchup is a nightmare for Liu Kang, he heavily relies on jumping.

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A lot of things can be talked about regarding the 'highest' level, doesn't mean they're always systematically correct when two humans are playing the game.

Besides, I've already stressed that it's not based on my experience, if it was up to me, it'd be like 8-2 Kenshi lol, I'm only pointing out the stuff that I feel Liu players don't take into account in the matchup.

KH_Seraph said:

This ^

I still feel the cold hard sting of my loss against Pig of the Hut. This demonstrates fairly well what the matchup looks like. Please forgive the input errors and overall bad damage decisions...This was my first major back when the game was still fairly new, and my converter for the PS2 controller was also somewhat acting up (Not to mention I didn't realize the power of standing 2 at the time)

The matchup can get so bad that Liu will become afraid to even approach and pretty much has to jump-in delayed air fireballs to bait Kenshi into making mistakes. @Titanman_88 knows how rough this matchup can be for Liu as well.

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There's way too much pre-emptive jumps over charge on wake-up after a knockdown in this set. If you have an inkling that it's coming, you may as well just wait and punish, Liu being one of the very few characters that can full combo punish spirit charge on block up close with 213. Admittedly it doesn't look like it reaches (and it probably doesn't at neutral frames, part of the shoulder hitbox must still be extended forward during recovery lol) but it can be done. There's virtually zero benefit to trying to jump over Kenshi that close to the corner.

Also, again, about the zoning meta of that matchup, you have to use Liu's projectiles for more than just faking-out your jump in. Pig wasn't really fishing for any reflects (granted, this might be because his Kenshi was still coming through the ranks back then, IDK) and there were several unnecessarily blocked flurries IMO.

MadPropz101 said:

Can someone explain why Liu Kang was not seen much in high level play?

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The short answer is that because Kabal was essentially a Super Liu Kang. There are a couple of things that Liu is better at mind you, but in the grand scheme of things, if you were gravitating towards the high tiers for the sake of it, Kabal just made more sense.