General/Other - Reptile Variation thoughts.

UsedForGlue said:

I really hope the play testers for Reptile can see this when playing too. It's painfully obvious.

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To be fair they're not there to test which variation will be best or worst for competitive play, they're there to find bugs and glitches and infinites and the like.

Youphemism said:

To be fair they're not there to test which variation will be best or worst for competitive play, they're there to find bugs and glitches and infinites and the like.

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Although everyone seems to be sure that they know exactly what's going on behind closed doos, I'd assume there are both kinds of feedback. If you're willing to bring a group of competitive players all the way across the country for a week to assist with something new for the first time, you're not simply going to 100% avoid discussion of every bit of game feedback or topic that's not an infinite or a bug.

There are pure QA testers there as well, but that's not exactly the same.

CrimsonShadow said:

Although everyone seems to be sure that they know exactly what's going on behind closed doos, I'd assume there are both kinds of feedback. If you're willing to bring a group of competitive players all the way across the country for a week to assist with something new for the first time, you're not simply going to 100% avoid discussion of every bit of game feedback or topic that's not an infinite or a bug.

There are pure QA testers there as well, but that's not exactly the same.

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Yeah well of course I'm not saying there won't be any talk about balance, that's what NRS are aiming for as far as I can tell, I'm just saying that the testers aren't there to speculate on who'll be the best character/variation for tournament play

Youphemism said:

Yeah well of course I'm not saying there won't be any talk about balance

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EDIT: Nm, I misread your post.

I just think they go hand in hand -- if something is particularly good or abusable, now is the time to figure it out (or at least take a look at it). The game will be going gold in a month or so.

DarthArma said:

guys what if he turns invisible and goes for a cross up!!!!

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It's rt to block. Sooo

trufenix said:

turning invisible is fucking sweet.

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True.

A F0xy Grampa said:

Who cares about Reptile, wtf does Kitana have a reflect for? That's the real mindfuck here.

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Fan fan fan, reflect. Fan fan fan, throat cut, reset the situation. I can see it now.

Just to be clear.

I understand that everything is subject to change, and yes, I do know that the game isn't out yet. So hopefully we can move past that now and focus on what I am saying.

For a whole variation, and for meter burning the variation specific move (invisibility), I simply feel, if it stays the way it is, it won't be worth it. Im not interested in having debates with a number of different people about their views and on what uses invisibility has, I know what it can be used for, and again, that isn't the point.

I am saying, if you are going to have a whole variation for one move, the MB version should have extra properties than the special, such as, Reptile staying invisible for a 5-10 second duration, no matter what, blocking or hit.

I simply don't think its worth it, when you could have Noxious or Nimble. Thats my point.

GGA 16 Bit said:

sounds like it's a wrap for the lizard.

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Lol we know you buffed kitana and gave her tools to deal with reptile and most chars that gave her trouble in MK9.

UsedForGlue said:

Just to be clear.

I understand that everything is subject to change, and yes, I do know that the game isn't out yet. So hopefully we can move past that now and focus on what I am saying.

For a whole variation, and for meter burning the variation specific move (invisibility), I simply feel, if it stays the way it is, it won't be worth it. Im not interested in having debates with a number of different people about their views and on what uses invisibility has, I know what it can be used for, and again, that isn't the point.

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Do you now? We have no idea what Reptile has gained in the normals department, nor how his moves will interact with invisibility. As a matter of fact, invisibility in and of itself wasn't even fully discussed. Why write off a whole variation on old knowledge? It's foolish and just like the EN throw nonsense we are taking the most basic of facts and running wild with them as a "call" to the developers (Like they'd read these threads and say "Wow, I never thought of that!) in the hopes that this will change.

I get enthusiasm and a need to discuss, but why are people making balance calls now? You don't even know how it works. I'll repeat that: you don't even know how it works.

A F0xy Grampa said:

Who cares about Reptile, wtf does Kitana have a reflect for? That's the real mindfuck here.

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I know, she seems scrubby already.

One of the negatives about having char loyalists game testing MKX.

Seems like all her MK9 weaknesse are gone. Shes got a wake up attack, a parry, a reflector, controls the air with fans, can alter her jumps etc etc.

I've been reading many argumentes here, and deceptive variation seems better than I first imagine when you think about it.
Especially if Reptile has a low normal starter for combo.

But, to me, it seems he might have one.
Look at this 2 or 3 hit combo that starts with a low normal, and ends up with a back jump kick at 0:15


Then watch reptile variation stream at 7:16


The guy is performing the first low hit without finishing the combo.
Could this mean you can link whatever special you want after that move ? Am I mistaken ?

But if not, that is weird the guy playing Reptile in the stream did not use it at all...

That would be godly since this low hit seems fast, has a good range, lowers Reptile's hitbox a lot and looks hard to punish.

KingHippo said:

Do you now? We have no idea what Reptile has gained in the normals department, nor how his moves will interact with invisibility. As a matter of fact, invisibility in and of itself wasn't even fully discussed. Why write off a whole variation on old knowledge? It's foolish and just like the EN throw nonsense we are taking the most basic of facts and running wild with them as a "call" to the developers (Like they'd read these threads and say "Wow, I never thought of that!) in the hopes that this will change.

I get enthusiasm and a need to discuss, but why are people making balance calls now? You don't even know how it works. I'll repeat that: you don't even know how it works.

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Hippo, this is thread is all speculation, and all threads discussing the game at this point are nothing more than that, it is just discussion, and I don't think it should discouraged, by anyone.

It does no harm in any way to discuss what we have seen so far, regardless of possible change.

But, il say it again...

If his invisibility variation MB move disengages after a short period of time no matter what, and or disengages while taking block chip damage, then I don't think it will be worth a whole variation over Noxious and even Nimble, regardless of strings.

UsedForGlue said:

Hippo, this is thread is all speculation, and all threads discussing the game at this point are nothing more than that, it is just discussion, and I don't think it should discouraged, by anyone.

It does no harm in any way to discuss what we have seen so far, regardless of possible change.

But, il say it again...

If his invisibility variation MB move disengages after a short period of time no matter what, and or disengages while taking block chip damage, then I don't think it will be worth a whole variation over Noxious and even Nimble, regardless of strings.

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And you're well within your right to speculate. Saying the variation is "useless" isn't really speculating, it's just waste. It's not provoking, it's not engaging, and refusing to engage in active debate with your peers about the use of the Invisibility and saying "I already know what you can do" is a little discouraging. Speculation is awesome, but this thread was meant to chide the testers into looking into buffing something that we have no idea about. That's not speculation.

UsedForGlue said:

Hippo, this is thread is all speculation, and all threads discussing the game at this point are nothing more than that, it is just discussion, and I don't think it should discouraged, by anyone.

It does no harm in any way to discuss what we have seen so far, regardless of possible change.

But, il say it again...

If his invisibility variation MB move disengages after a short period of time no matter what, and or disengages while taking block chip damage, then I don't think it will be worth a whole variation over Noxious and even Nimble, regardless of strings.

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Reptile has a low and an overhead, he has that sweep that looks like maybe it could get at least a little damage, and the overhead lunge thing. Could stagger block strings into either of them when invisible I guess, at least thats something. Perhaps the sweep is a high crush as well, and the overhead already looks like a low crush, so that in itself could make invisibility good because it will discourage people pressing buttons to escape, unless they have a true mid thats quick like a F3.

Invisible 5050s

A F0xy Grampa said:

Reptile has a low and an overhead, he has that sweep that looks like maybe it could get at least a little damage, and the overhead lunge thing. Could stagger block strings into either of them when invisible I guess, at least thats something. Perhaps the sweep is a high crush as well, and the overhead already looks like a low crush, so that in itself could make invisibility good because it will discourage people pressing buttons to escape, unless they have a true mid thats quick like a F3.

Invisible 5050s

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Yea I was thinking that. But both the low and the overhead look pretty quick and not fuzzyguardable so the invis imo is still a waste. Now if the overhead was like 20 frames or something, then the invis would be pretty handy

THTB said:

You're massively underestimating invisibility and how it can change matchups. That becomes a difference between being able to space and being totally unable to, and that means characters that rely heavily on traditional footsies suffer a lot as soon as the opponent cannot be seen.

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I agree with this whole heartily.

I still feel the other 2 variations will be stronger, but that deceptive will have it's place as well.

I don't understand how people don't see the usefulness of the ability to go completely invisible with character with multiple screen clearing moves including a leaping overhead that can go over projectiles, a sliding low that can be MB'd for armor, a dash that can MB'd to have armor IRC, a projectile that moves at walking speed, a projectile that can be completely frozen in the air, an overhead that can be MB'd into a launcher, and of course an unblockable grab.

And we don't even know his normal combos yet, dude could have a launching combo that stats with an overhead or a low, or a overhead or low combo that can be cancelled into special moves.

He could go invisible and do the overhead combo and end it with slide, or do the low combo and end it with the special overhead and even MB it into a launcher for an extended combo.


It's a constant 50/50 on a character with a multiple long reaching answers for everything, and many ways of activating it.

Reptile is made of potential damage in this game.

A variation that completely masks your attacks.
A variation that can extend combos.
A variation that does constant DOT.

SenSx said:

I've been reading many argumentes here, and deceptive variation seems better than I first imagine when you think about it.
Especially if Reptile has a low normal starter for combo.

But, to me, it seems he might have one.
Look at this 2 or 3 hit combo that starts with a low normal, and ends up with a back jump kick at 0:15

Then watch reptile variation stream at 7:16

The guy is performing the first low hit without finishing the combo.
Could this mean you can link whatever special you want after that move ? Am I mistaken ?

But if not, that is weird the guy playing Reptile in the stream did not use it at all...

That would be godly since this low hit seems fast, has a good range, lowers Reptile's hitbox a lot and looks hard to punish.

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I didn't even think about the low string being cancellable after the first hit...I'm stupid lol

I think one thing we should consider is that maybe not all variations are expected to be equally useful. I know it's fun to consider it as a balance ideal, but in practice, we all know it's not going to be possible at all. His invisibility variation being useful for even maybe a handful of match ups isn't the worst thing ever. Especially if you consider a specialist getting really good at playing invisible countering not just a character, but perhaps even a player's style.

HDTran said:

I think one thing we should consider is that maybe not all variations are expected to be equally useful. I know it's fun to consider it as a balance ideal, but in practice, we all know it's not going to be possible at all. His invisibility variation being useful for even maybe a handful of match ups isn't the worst thing ever. Especially if you consider a specialist getting really good at playing invisible countering not just a character, but perhaps even a player's style.

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There's no expectation whatsoever to achieve balance amongst variations but there should be a clear intent to be balanced have utility amongst them. Usedforglue is most likely right, if I was a betting man I'd say noxious is a safe bet at being the strongest, flash trait is the one that is a huge question, and invis most likely will be weaker.

Bird Lao X said:

I know, she seems scrubby already.

One of the negatives about having char loyalists game testing MKX.

Seems like all her MK9 weaknesse are gone. Shes got a wake up attack, a parry, a reflector, controls the air with fans, can alter her jumps etc etc.

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I wouldn't accuse someone of that but I do think ideakly testers and developers should not participate in tournament, at least a few months after release but probably never, it'd be hard to control being fully unbiased to a charcter you love. My first instinct says fan chucker variation blows the other 2 out of the water, where jade is a huge question mark due to normals

How about in addition to making him invisible it makes his specials like forceball and acid spot invisible too. I think that would add a layer of strategy to his game plan. Not only that how about his opponent not auto-facing towards his direction. That should make his deception variation worthwhile.

dribirut said:

Yea I was thinking that. But both the low and the overhead look pretty quick and not fuzzyguardable so the invis imo is still a waste. Now if the overhead was like 20 frames or something, then the invis would be pretty handy

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From what I can remember the overhead looks reactable. But you'd have to Ex it to get a combo from it, so perhaps you could still react to it.
Who knows?

iamylem said:

How about in addition to making him invisible it makes his specials like forceball and acid spot invisible too. I think that would add a layer of strategy to his game plan. Not only that how about his opponent not auto-facing towards his direction. That should make his deception variation worthwhile.

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The invisible forceball idea maybe, maybe.
The other idea wouldnt worth since there is only so much of the screen you can serperate from, so you'd be able to tell.

dribirut said:

Yea I was thinking that. But both the low and the overhead look pretty quick and not fuzzyguardable so the invis imo is still a waste. Now if the overhead was like 20 frames or something, then the invis would be pretty handy

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Dude go to 1:35 in the video like 3 posts up, the animation he reaches all the way back and lunges forward. I think it looks more similar to acid hand, I think it'll be retactable. But it's going to add an easy combo starter

Peckapowa said:

Dude go to 1:35 in the video like 3 posts up, the animation he reaches all the way back and lunges forward. I think it looks more similar to acid hand, I think it'll be retactable. But it's going to add an easy combo starter

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Actually yea it seems about 18 frames or the same as Martians overhead. It's is fuzzy able but not easy. Imo still doesnt justify the use of this variation