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MK9: Unofficial Tier List Speculation, and/or Character Shenanigans Discussion!

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If a smart KL will never just "throw it out", and it's only used for punishing other moves, comboed into, defensive purposes like you say.....then it shouldn't be blocked, in theory right? If that's the case, there is no reason to talk about how to punish it. Yet, in reality, it WILL be thrown out at random times by top players and in time, everybody will know how to punish it w/the max w/their chosen char
Knowing how to punish something is only half the battle. Your post speaks mostly in theory.

Why even put in quotes "throw it out" when it was you that mentioned it initially?

I can go as far as to say in reality it will go unpunished many times, like it already has been.
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
Kung Lao is perfectly fine, as of now the game is awesome...everyone who cries about him should spend more time in dealing with him...Online would be most inappropriate place to do that.
 
guys, this was mk9s first major and i felt some pressure here to deliver so there were times where i misexecuted.. AND I LOVE IT! normally i am 90% on that punish but because i felt a big amount of pressure here i messed up at times.

its my fault.. now that power up is done and i feel the monkey off my back it will be rare when you dont see that shit punished.

i like that its a smaller window so that all the cry babies cant punish without practice. i'll punish it, you wont .. i like that because i practiced it and you didnt.

stop crying and start practicing.
Wanna know something? I can't argue with this, cause I actually totally agree with it.

Except for the part about liking that it's a smaller window, even if I was the Kung Lao player.

But yeah, it is what it is.
 

Sequel

Boob Titbot
1 move is just that 1 move. I don't need to be Daigo to understand risk/reward with 1 move.
No one is saying you have to be Daigo to understand the game. What I am saying is that you need more experience period to pass judgement on something that may seem broken or unfair at the moment.
 

oZii

Noob
OMG you guys won!! Hurray!! :cheers:

People can't talk about a topic with out people getting it all offensive on a message board. lol

Or resorting to names like Scrubs or Cry Babies because you assume everyone is incompetent except you. I guess some people always feel that they have to be right so to counter argue I will call you a scrub or cry baby.

Gotta love the internets lol

On to the next character.
 
VF Akira is considered usually the hardest character ever to master in any fighting game but his reward is sky high. A scrub can't pick him up and button mash or win.
The most difficult thing about Akira relatively in VF is his execution. His gameplan and strategy is pretty straight forward and many of his moves help to facilitate that. An easier implemented strategy and gameplan is a perk that comes with his execution barrier. A lot of his moves take quite some buffer time.

I don't know about all the Mishimas in Tekken but there are probably characters that are similar in that regard in the game.
 

Sequel

Boob Titbot
OMG you guys won!! Hurray!! :cheers:

People can't talk about a topic with out people getting it all offensive on a message board. lol

Or resorting to names like Scrubs or Cry Babies because you assume everyone is incompetent except you. I guess some people always feel that they have to be right so to counter argue I will call you a scrub or cry baby.

Gotta love the internets lol

On to the next character.
Cool story bro.
 

REO

Undead
Again, Kung is #6 on the tier list, so if he gets nerfed everyone should be discussing about what to nerf about the five above him as well. Sub-Zero, Raiden, Cage, Reptile, Nightwolf. I mean, it's only fair, right?

I still can't believe people want to nerf characters when the game isn't close to being fully developed. You guys haven't even seen top level Raidens, Nightwolfs, etc. yet, and I gurantee they will be worse than Kung Lao if not around the same level.
 
Again, Kung is #6 on the tier list, so if he gets nerfed everyone should be discussing about what to nerf about the five above him as well. Sub-Zero, Raiden, Cage, Reptile, Nightwolf. I mean, it's only fair, right?

I still can't believe people want to nerf characters when the game isn't close to being fully developed. You guys haven't even seen top level Raidens, Nightwolfs, etc. yet, and I gurantee they will be worse than Kung Lao if not around the same level.
What I wanna know is, what exactly comes to your mind when you think of something getting nerfed?
 

oZii

Noob
The most difficult thing about Akira relatively in VF is his execution. His gameplan and strategy is pretty straight forward and many of his moves help to facilitate that. An easier implemented strategy and gameplan is a perk that comes with his execution barrier.

I don't know about all the Mishimas in Tekken but there are probably characters that are similar in that regard in the game.


Agreed on Akira

Mishima is like the Shoto stigma in SF. Similar moves sets with partial deviation from overall strategy. Its always Heihachi, Kazuya, Jin, tekken 6 introduced Lars. They are (mishima by last name but they have those same traits.) Out side of lars who doesnt play like any of them but still has the safe style movesets, good damage and mixups.

In tekken 6 they introduced Bob who is considered a Mishima even though by name he isn't one because he has many safe moves and pokes along with speed and relatively good damage.
 
again I'm not bitching about the spin itself, the spin can stay as is. it sucks that I can only punish it with a 11% special but it's better then nothing. my issue is that he has every tool to win. that's all. sub doesn't even have every tool to win, cage doesn't, reptile doesn't, raiden doesn't, cyber sub doesn't.
This is exactly how I feel.

Although it wouldn't matter to me whether he got nerfed or not
 

oZii

Noob
Cool story bro.

Sorry not biting on the bait lol.

Im done with the kung topic. Nothing wrong with walking away.

On to that next character.


I havent seen much Sektor play really. I did watch Sllent use him last night though. He seems like he has some good tools. Strings are pretty good too. His U+3 mixups are look good too.

Dan Cock very nice Kitana I saw last night.
 

RWDY Nori

Where is crossplay?
Knowing how to punish something is only half the battle. Your post speaks mostly in theory.

Why even put in quotes "throw it out" when it was you that mentioned it initially?

I can go as far as to say in reality it will go unpunished many times, like it already has been.
I disagree. I feel that the more the game is played w/people taking the time to practice against KL, it will be punished way more often cause the game won't be out 2 weeks at the time. I haven't seen you play, don't know if you are good or not, yet am still confident when you see the move more often in live battle (offline), you will punish it 8 times out of 10 (or maybe 9).

oZii: I don't think anybody is angry or upset. I think frustrated is the word. It's frustrating when old school players who puts lots of time into the game see new players give up so easily on something and call for a nerf. Offline tournaments teach you patience and how to deal w/certain moves. If you don't compete in offline tourneys, you are just playing your buddies and never improving or playing online, which is not playing at all.

And in Tekken, EWGF is high. You can't spam it. You don't get NEARLY the advantage you used to when it's blocked. Duck and launch if you think it's coming;)
 

cyke_out

Noob
alot of this punishing debate would be easily solved with a proper training mode with a playback feature. Have a problem with the spin, record the training to do it and then block afterwards and have fun practicing.
 
alot of this punishing debate would be easily solved with a proper training mode with a playback feature. Have a problem with the spin, record the training to do it and then block afterwards and have fun practicing.
Yup. It would go a LONG way towards helping this for a lot of people.
 
Sorry not biting on the bait lol.

Im done with the kung topic. Nothing wrong with walking away.

On to that next character.


I havent seen much Sektor play really. I did watch Sllent use him last night though. He seems like he has some good tools. Strings are pretty good too. His U+3 mixups are look good too.

Dan Cock very nice Kitana I saw last night.
from spending time in practice mode and playing my friend, I can say that sektor does some big damage with his combos. homing missle leads to some nice mixups and 1,2,b+1 is really nice for him (especially with j1or2). He has good tools but i feel that he lacks speed (imo). like his missles have long startup and recovery along with his teleport being unsafe also. his flamethrower is good for AA but its also punishable.
 

RWDY Nori

Where is crossplay?
alot of this punishing debate would be easily solved with a proper training mode with a playback feature. Have a problem with the spin, record the training to do it and then block afterwards and have fun practicing.
I wonder if there is some kind of patch to put that in the game? Would be great cause there are lots of chars I don't have access to practice against


I've asked this before but nobody really answered: Why is Reptile a counter pick to KL?
 
I disagree. I feel that the more the game is played w/people taking the time to practice against KL, it will be punished way more often cause the game won't be out 2 weeks at the time. I haven't seen you play, don't know if you are good or not, yet am still confident when you see the move more often in live battle (offline), you will punish it 8 times out of 10 (or maybe 9).
I'm respectable about actually punishing moves that I know(or am sure) are unsafe, with at least something, and trust that alone does go a long way. As far as me being good or not, let's just say I'm not good until proven otherwise(might not ever happen cause I got some career aspects I want to take care of, so it's whatever).

With that said, I do have an experienced understanding of how risk/reward should work, as we all should, and that move as an example just doesn't add up(but there are OTHERS, I disagree with too, some stuff leads to combos with some characters and is totally safe it's hilarious to me). 100% consistency with punishing it, wouldn't really alter my opinion on that, it should be punishable by the greatest of moves naked based on its commonly landing and reward from it, it comes out extremely fast. Not sure yet(because I haven't even tested it myself because the trainer is bad to know without a doubt). But for an example the move should be able to just be flat out punished with moves Kung Lao can't even break the first hit of his punishment on(if that's some naked xrays, then I guess that depends on the speed).

Easier to deal with.
In that respect, I agree. I don't want anything to be easier to deal with, that's a bad nerf. But if one screws up while trying to take it all, they should be paid it all back in full, relative to it's statistics or properties.

Making everything easier to deal with is just lame, so I most definitely agree with you on that. So I'd hope you'd at least understand where I'm coming from on how risk/rewards work. If nothing happens to the spin, then I don't even care, however personally I'd feel unfulfilled if my own spin went unpunished by someone that couldn't punish it but was totally prepared though(why did I even miss it or have it guarded anyway).
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
Sorry not biting on the bait lol.

Im done with the kung topic. Nothing wrong with walking away.

On to that next character.


I havent seen much Sektor play really. I did watch Sllent use him last night though. He seems like he has some good tools. Strings are pretty good too. His U+3 mixups are look good too.

Dan Cock very nice Kitana I saw last night.
OMFG he was streaming last night? WTF it was awful.. I was getting so pissed that was not good play. I couldn't punish shit the way I'm suppose to. I had to resort to shit 15% combos with sindel instead of 30%+ ones. I couldn't instant air fireball cause they came out late and my 44 trap was shit cause I couldn't pump out the fireball to make him scared to counter. sometimes she spit out the low fireball it was funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

oZii

Noob
OMFG he was streaming last night? WTF it was awful.. I was getting so pissed that was not good play. I couldn't punish shit the way I'm suppose to. I had to resort to shit 15% combos with sindel instead of 30%+ ones. I couldn't instant air fireball cause they came out late and my 44 trap was shit cause I couldn't pump out the fireball to make him scared to counter. sometimes she spit out the low fireball it was funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lol You didnt know? haha When i was watching I was like I know that GT from somewhere. Yea man you were recorded last night haha.
 

dookieagain

Last Bastion of Arcades
Just wanted to say that although I was counted among the pro-nerf crowd that wasn't my stance.

I merely was saying that sometimes an early nerf isn't bad. (As in the case of Sentinel) I didn't say Kung Lao needed a nerf since I haven't had any serious in person matches against one, and practicing punishment without proper tools is discouraging.

Not to shift the discussion, but something I've been wondering about regarding tiers is, how do people feel about characters who fill the same role, but one simply has far better tools than another?

So far that's one of the only things that's discouraged me in this game. I feel like by playing Stryker, I'm playing a weak Ermac who gets half as much damage off his duckable projectile and is scrambling to punish 1/10 as effectively.

While I feel like Stryker can win, I also feel like I'm sort of playing a character who is basically completely superseded by another character in the same exact playstyle.

This seems a little different than the tiering in Marvel/Super where characters may have less effective tools but they don't overlap as significantly.

Then again maybe I'm just missing something in the tools I have available that make this disparity less pressing, but it's a bit annoying to get a right read and get 11% damage, when my Ermac playing friend can punish the same things for 30+. Or when my zoning requires risk and very tight spacing for 6% and his zoning hits everywhere, pushes them fullscreen, and deals twice as much damage. Or when I have to time a tight anti-air and spend an ex to get 25% and he gets 35% with no meter for an anti-air that hits miles in front of and around him.
 

oZii

Noob
I disagree. I feel that the more the game is played w/people taking the time to practice against KL, it will be punished way more often cause the game won't be out 2 weeks at the time. I haven't seen you play, don't know if you are good or not, yet am still confident when you see the move more often in live battle (offline), you will punish it 8 times out of 10 (or maybe 9).

oZii: I don't think anybody is angry or upset. I think frustrated is the word. It's frustrating when old school players who puts lots of time into the game see new players give up so easily on something and call for a nerf. Offline tournaments teach you patience and how to deal w/certain moves. If you don't compete in offline tourneys, you are just playing your buddies and never improving or playing online, which is not playing at all.

And in Tekken, EWGF is high. You can't spam it. You don't get NEARLY the advantage you used to when it's blocked. Duck and launch if you think it's coming;)

Oh missed this part nori on the tekken reference :dance: ahh how I love that game.
 

McNasty

Moist.
They need to buff the practice mode.

I like setting the AI to expert against kung lao any time you rush it it spins only problem is it doesnt do the big damage combos so you have to guess where meter would be and if you could break it. Still a good tool to learn how to dash in close enough to bait the spin/punish. Oh all of kungs EX moves are great too.

The only reason were having this discussion is because hes easy to use and popular. I think Ozii said it before this thread will soon be on kabals or reptiles dash or nightwolf cage or raidens wakeups. Its a natural thing, people need a place to vent thats what were here for.
 

oZii

Noob
Just wanted to say that although I was counted among the pro-nerf crowd that wasn't my stance.

I merely was saying that sometimes an early nerf isn't bad. (As in the case of Sentinel) I didn't say Kung Lao needed a nerf since I haven't had any serious in person matches against one, and practicing punishment without proper tools is discouraging.

Not to shift the discussion, but something I've been wondering about regarding tiers is, how do people feel about characters who fill the same role, but one simply has far better tools than another?

So far that's one of the only things that's discouraged me in this game. I feel like by playing Stryker, I'm playing a weak Ermac who gets half as much damage off his duckable projectile and is scrambling to punish 1/10 as effectively.

While I feel like Stryker can win, I also feel like I'm sort of playing a character who is basically completely superseded by another character in the same exact playstyle.

This seems a little different than the tiering in Marvel/Super where characters may have less effective tools but they don't overlap as significantly.

Then again maybe I'm just missing something in the tools I have available that make this disparity less pressing, but it's a bit annoying to get a right read and get 11% damage, when my Ermac playing friend can punish the same things for 30+. Or when my zoning requires risk and very tight spacing for 6% and his zoning hits everywhere, pushes them fullscreen, and deals twice as much damage. Or when I have to time a tight anti-air and spend an ex to get 25% and he gets 35% with no meter for an anti-air that hits miles in front of and around him.
Hmm I think there might be some more Stryker Tech out there. He seems to play different than Ermac to me I dont see many similarities in their tools.
 
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