Question - Summoner It is time for some real Quan talk

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Well, that's exactly it. You say everyone know's that he didn't deserve these changes. but then you have people like Shujinkydink and Sage Leviathan who not only campaigned for these changes to be implemented, but are still in every thread defending them. And, this is why people are accusing certain members of the QC community of being downplayers (and rightfully so). It's a pretty straight forward cause and effect here my man, lol.



PS nice job over the weekend man

Thanks man. I guess I just take offence when I see "man the quan community downplay" when I'm here legitimately trying to educate.

 

[M2Dave]

He was perfectly balanced without the 6 frame d1. With that buff he seems pretty damn cheesy now.

The 6F d+1 has been entirely blown out of proportion. d+3 is still better. Superior frame data on block and hit and low-profiling ability.

Quan Chi is a top tier character with somewhat limited execution requirements who performs very well against low and mid level players (i.e., the vast majority of people on this website). High level players who are patient and familiar with all vortex options approach Quan Chi carefully, acquire a knock down, and abuse the lack of armored wake up options. The most recent tournament matches and results support this theory. In other words, the only people who complain about Quan Chi are scrubs who hate blocking and simply want to get in order to do 50/50 mix ups.

 

[I Am The LK]

your an idiot
sorry , but its true u.u

if you don't play quan or don't understand how to fight him your arguments have no merit.

Also PL agreed with me and a comment i made about how Quan is like what you'd get if you'd try to translate a mage character from an MMO into a fighting game.

Seems like someones a little salty

 

[M.D.]

Quan has a lot of hitbox problems which makes his footsie game useless and unsafe. b3, d3 and d1 have shit reach and you can't do jack shit against long range pokes that the true top tiers have. He has no footsie tools that leave him safe without spending meter.

He needs buffs and hitbox fixes.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

What about grab? Switch sides with a back throw, then get out of pressure. If they read the grab and neutral duck, you can literally do anything into full combo. Saying his d1 doesn't guarantee anything is bogus. Honestly you sell yourself short as a FG player when you say that.



Same thing here, if you really believe that Quan's zoning isn't a fundamental part of his game, and a big part of how he initiates the vortex in the first place, you really can't call yourself "the Quanfather."

That, or you agree with me and just are saying otherwise, cause, you know, you're downplaying.

Haaaaaaa. I will never not lose my title as Quanfather. My loyal children know dis. I didn't say zoning wasn't a fundamental part of his game, I said he can't rely on that. There's too many ways people can get in in this game. He needs all his tools. Very rarely can you lock someone down full screen for an entire match

 

[llabslb]

I thought people would be more creative with this debate by now

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I want to see the following...

1. Remove his ridiculous OH/Low mixup or his ability to cancel one of them into ex rune (so that way, he's, ya know... actually punishable when you guess correctly instead of oh, you guessed right?... lolol I'm +14), Remove his hard to blockables.

2. Give him an armored move that can also be used to wakeup.

And let's see if all this, "but his defense is bad" stuff is legit... or just a crutch used by quan chi downplayers.

I'm thinking it's the latter. If they were nerfed, yet received a buff with an armored wakeup, most quans would drop him.

 

[RM NoBrows]

I want to see the following...

1. Remove his ridiculous OH/Low mixup or his ability to cancel one of them into ex rune (so that way, he's, ya know... actually punishable when you guess correctly instead of oh, you guessed right?... lolol I'm +14), Remove his hard to blockables.

2. Give him an armored move that can also be used to wakeup.

And let's see if all this, "but his defense is bad" stuff is legit... or just a crutch used by quan chi downplayers.

I'm thinking it's the latter. If they were nerfed, yet received a buff with an armored wakeup, most quans would drop him.

He doesn't need an armored wake up. Just make low bat mid. The idea of making his OH/low starters not special cancellable is ridiculous IMO. The only way he has to pressure characters universally is canceling them into rune. If anything, make rune less plus on block.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

He doesn't need an armored wake up. Just make low bat mid. The idea of making his OH/low starters not special cancellable is ridiculous IMO. The only way he has to pressure characters universally is canceling them into rune. If anything, make rune less plus on block.

Yeah, I mean... why should he be punished for making a wrong read?

Let's let raiden cancel b2 into shocker... OH WAIT (and hell... shocker wasn't even plus.)

Let's let sub zero cancel b2 into clone, but clone gets to be plus 14.

etc

It's basically a get out of jail free card for quan. Oh, they blocked it? ex rune... now I have another chance. It's dumb.

EDIT: And also, just fyi... I said one or the other b/w OH and Low starters and also didn't say he couldn't cancel other specials from them. Ya know, like... hella punishable trance or his skulls.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I want to see the following...

1. Remove his ridiculous OH/Low mixup or his ability to cancel one of them into ex rune (so that way, he's, ya know... actually punishable when you guess correctly instead of oh, you guessed right?... lolol I'm +14), Remove his hard to blockables.

2. Give him an armored move that can also be used to wakeup.

And let's see if all this, "but his defense is bad" stuff is legit... or just a crutch used by quan chi downplayers.

I'm thinking it's the latter. If they were nerfed, yet received a buff with an armored wakeup, most quans would drop him.

If Quan had good armor in all variations but his low string wasn't special cancelable, Quan would be way way way more broken than he is now.

As things stand his low string into rune has a gap in it and people familiar with the matchup armor through anyway, so that wouldn't really change anything for me except for giving me a good wakeup.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

If Quan had good armor in all variations but his low string wasn't special cancelable, Quan would be way way way more broken than he is now.

As things stand his low string into rune has a gap in it and people familiar with the matchup armor through anyway, so that wouldn't really change anything for me except for giving me a good wakeup.

Then make his overhead the one that can't cancel.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Then make his overhead the one that can't cancel.

then he wouldn't ever get anything off of it so there would be no 50/50 at all

that's more than just nerfing him at that point, haha.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

then he wouldn't ever get anything off of it so there would be no 50/50 at all

that's more than just nerfing him at that point, haha.

Haha, I have no problem with that.

But like I edited into one of my earlier posts... it can still be cancelled into trance that way if it hits he gets his shit or if it's blocked he gets punished.

That way he has to do shit like:

blocksting into ex rune into either the overhead or low. Instead of just throwing out the overhead with no consequence.

Plus if he has bat out... he doesn't really need the ex rune. He can throw the bat as he's doing the overhead.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

I think people are just being assholes to this guy.

Honestly, giving a full screen zoning character a 50/50 vortex that results in either high damage or repeating vortex is too much. Let along give him a poke to get out of his only weakness, which is dealing with pressure.

Does that make Quan ridiculous? No. The state of the game would have been fantastic without the poke buff but we got it so we gotta hold that. Still doesn't make him broke.

Certainly not Shinnok tier but best in game for sure.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Haha, I have no problem with that.

But like I edited into one of my earlier posts... it can still be cancelled into trance that way if it hits he gets his shit or if it's blocked he gets punished.

That way he has to do shit like:

blocksting into ex rune into either the overhead or low. Instead of just throwing out the overhead with no consequence.

Plus if he has bat out... he doesn't really need the ex rune. He can throw the bat as he's doing the overhead.

To be honest I don't see the EN rune being the big problem with him. There are plenty of other characters with 50/50s that can be made plus for meter. Erron, Cutthroat Kano, Jacqui, Reptile, and plenty of others that can make them safe like Slasher Jason, Jax (for free), Cassie, Shaolin Kung Jin, etc.

Also like I said earlier, you can always armor if he does the low, so it's not like he's totally safe off of either one. Some chars (most I think, but I never tested it) can even backdash out of the string itself or the string into low rune and get a full punish while he wastes a bar.



I do have a potential change suggestion for Quan though that I think would make the character better designed overall:

Low Bat no longer hits low.

Teleport has a wider hitbox and retains it's armor on the way down (if he hasn't already absorbed something).



Summoner would still have his strong mixup game but they would have to actually choose high or low, and not just yolo hard to blockable. His armor would be more consistent in certain situations that would help a lot, but still slow and unrewarding. Side note: you can actually avoid Quan's teleport from anywhere on the screen by just neutral jumping, haha.

 

[wsj515]

I'm not saying the buffs didnt help by any means. I was communicating what I think was necessary or not, what is often overlooked and what should be done to tone him down. I think he's very good, possibly too good but since this is how he is now, why the fuck is most of tym saying "OMG he doesnt deserve it he's so crazy" which everyone ALREADY KNOWS, and not "this is what he has, so what should we do to help us with the matchup." I made some suggestions about nerfs, which I think are reasonable and worth discussing, as well as tried to shed light on how to approach the matchup. I didn't come here to reinform everyone that yes he is very good. Be constructive people!

Fair enough, since I was quoting you I should have been addressing you directly rather than half talking to you and half talking to the other Quan's in the thread who are going at great lengths to make it seem like the character is either fine or needs more. Read through some of these posts though, and tell me they aren't downplaying. I'm tired of reading that Quan is balanced because his lack of defense options, which is so ridiculous its not even funny. People talk about it as if Quan is a glass cannon, but once you get in, you still need to open him up, which is 95% reliant on the players rather than the character. Sure, having good armor makes getting out of pressure a bit easier, but good players often don't armor out of pressure/wake up and save to bar for something else in the first place. I can't imagine what someone as defensively sound as DJT would do with him now that he has the 6f d1. Maybe before the 6f d1 he was actually a glass cannon, but now with it he is pretty unbalanced. I'm not saying broken, mind you, but definitely unbalanced.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

No. It would make Summoner way too easy to block, making the whole point of Summoner pointless.

I honestly don't know what they could do with Summoner, it'd be hard to balance because if his offence is too weak, he'll be too easy to rushdown and his excelling area is average, making him an average character.

Maybe add more cooldown to the bat or something, letting you go for a mixup into trance, but then when you land a second trance after a bat reset you have to end the combo which allows you to zone afterwards, but not keep looping impossible to blockables.

I don't main Summoner, so I'm not the right person to ask.

His offense could never be weak by default.
Summoner makes his offense too strong, the bat is like a better version of the old old ex tempest hat, for no meter, into a mixup opposed to block pressure.



But overall Quan is just a stupidly designed character.

 

[RM NoBrows]

Yeah, I mean... why should he be punished for making a wrong read?

Let's let raiden cancel b2 into shocker... OH WAIT (and hell... shocker wasn't even plus.)

Let's let sub zero cancel b2 into clone, but clone gets to be plus 14.

etc

It's basically a get out of jail free card for quan. Oh, they blocked it? ex rune... now I have another chance. It's dumb.

EDIT: And also, just fyi... I said one or the other b/w OH and Low starters and also didn't say he couldn't cancel other specials from them. Ya know, like... hella punishable trance or his skulls.

Yeah, I mean... why should he be punished for making a wrong read?

Let's let raiden cancel b2 into shocker... OH WAIT (and hell... shocker wasn't even plus.)

Let's let sub zero cancel b2 into clone, but clone gets to be plus 14.

etc

It's basically a get out of jail free card for quan. Oh, they blocked it? ex rune... now I have another chance. It's dumb.

EDIT: And also, just fyi... I said one or the other b/w OH and Low starters and also didn't say he couldn't cancel other specials from them. Ya know, like... hella punishable trance or his skulls.

I didn't see you say one or the other. If that were the case I'd say make low starter not special cancellable. But back to the whole rune thing. You do know just about every character can backdash what quan does after ex rune, right? People underestimate backdashing in this game. Only way your backdash would get stuffed is if I read it and do trance/mid rune. And most characters can armor what he does next. Hell, kung lao can punish in between the runes with spin. My suggestion is to make it no more than +7. Thats where Kung Laos hatspin is at and it seems to be fine now from it being like +25 or whatever it was pre patch.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

To be honest I don't see the EN rune being the big problem with him. There are plenty of other characters with 50/50s that can be made plus for meter. Erron, Cutthroat Kano, Jacqui, Reptile, and plenty of others that can make them safe like Slasher Jason, Jax (for free), Cassie, Shaolin Kung Jin, etc.

Also like I said earlier, you can always armor if he does the low, so it's not like he's totally safe off of either one. Some chars (most I think, but I never tested it) can even backdash out of the string itself or the string into low rune and get a full punish while he wastes a bar.



I do have a potential change suggestion for Quan though that I think would make the character better designed overall:

Low Bat no longer hits low.

Teleport has a wider hitbox and retains it's armor on the way down (if he hasn't already absorbed something).



Summoner would still have his strong mixup game but they would have to actually choose high or low, and not just yolo hard to blockable. His armor would be more consistent in certain situations that would help a lot, but still slow and unrewarding. Side note: you can actually avoid Quan's teleport from anywhere on the screen by just neutral jumping, haha.

I'm picking on ex rune just b/c I don't like that it's +14 lol

You can backdash after it and avoid one of the two (can't remember if it avoids the OH or the Low) but the other does catch you back into the shenanigans. Which I guess I wouldn't have a problem with if it wasn't so much damage into more safe 50/50s or 40+ damage into zoning. It just feels like TOO MUCH.

Like, why does he need to not be punishable on his 50/50? Raiden B2 and B3 is how 50/50s should be done IMO (without the OS and yes I know they removed it)

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I'm picking on ex rune just b/c I don't like that it's +14 lol

You can backdash after it and avoid one of the two (can't remember if it avoids the OH or the Low) but the other does catch you back into the shenanigans. Which I guess I wouldn't have a problem with if it wasn't so much damage into more safe 50/50s or 40+ damage into zoning. It just feels like TOO MUCH.

Like, why does he need to not be punishable on his 50/50? Raiden B2 and B3 is how 50/50s should be done IMO (without the OS and yes I know they removed it)

yeah low into rune has a gap, but overhead into rune doesn't > rune into low doesn't have a gap, but rune into overhead does haha

 

[M.D.]

Someone, I can't say who it is because I went blind after I read it (i'm writing this by memory from keyboard, being blind and all) COMPARED <not sure how they compared, the second i read CLONE i went blind and insane> quan ex rune with subzero clone. EX RUNE with CLONE. EX, EX, rune, that one that you do with ONE BAR of meter , to that SPAMMABLE BROKEN PIECE OF SHIT clone that goes CONSTANTLY after each string "punishable my ass" CLONE.

EX RUNE with 1 meter, vs CLONESPAMCLONESPAMSPAMSPAM. And they complained about ex rune being +14. EX. EX. EEEEEEEEX. AHHHHHHH HAHAHAHa08f9u409093)$(#^()$#^&()#$()^%$

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Someone, I can't say who it is because I went blind after I read it (i'm writing this by memory from keyboard, being blind and all) COMPARED <not sure how they compared, the second i read CLONE i went blind and insane> quan ex rune with subzero clone. EX RUNE with CLONE. EX, EX, rune, that one that you do with ONE BAR of meter , to that SPAMMABLE BROKEN PIECE OF SHIT clone that goes CONSTANTLY after each string "punishable my ass" CLONE.

EX RUNE with 1 meter, vs CLONESPAMCLONESPAMSPAMSPAM. And they complained about ex rune being +14. EX. EX. EEEEEEEEX. AHHHHHHH HAHAHAHa08f9u409093)$(#^()$#^&()#$()^%$

Sub Zero doesn't vortex off a clone.

And I didn't compare it, I said... if quan can be plus 14 off his 50/50 starters, let's make sub zero do it too. Trying to show how stupid it is, with a move that would be just as stupid.

And btw... if you do indeed play reptile, you can punish clone every time if you have meter so... lol at that.

 

[M.D.]

LOL at actually thinking that using meter = clone punish. How about the other 9000 he does in the round? Am I going to have to bring meter from home for those?


Subzero subject aside, I get what you're saying, it's like saying give scorpion ex teleport +14 on block. I just can't stand subzero that's all.

P.s. Just noticed you have a grandmaster avatar. Ooops....

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

LOL at actually thinking that using meter = clone punish. How about the other 9000 he does in the round? Am I going to have to bring meter from home for those?


Subzero subject aside, I get what you're saying, it's like saying give scorpion ex teleport +14 on block. I just can't stand subzero that's all.

P.s. Just noticed you have a grandmaster avatar. Ooops....

Not gonna turn this into a Sub Zero topic... ALTHOUGH, that IS what we do

Glad you get what I meant.

 

[DuBBer Kiir]

I put Quan at #1, am I still downplaying? I acknowledge his mixup and zoning game is ridiculous, offense easily best in the game, but he does have areas where he struggles. That's all I'm saying, that's not downplaying, it's just the truth.