General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero General Discussion

[True]

Cryomancer is probably tournament viable. He can kill if he opens up an opponent 3 times, but so can a lot of other characters.

Cryomancer is /not/ a mix up variation, and hammer should not typically be used as such as both versions are highly reactable. His strength is his indiscriminate damage in relation to screen position, and how fast he paces the match with short, damaging combos resetting to true neutral (cold blooded string is essential). Neutral becomes a strength when the player knows both SZ as well as the opponents options. Well placed d4 leads to frame trap b12, and that leads to damage. This is gospel for Cryomancer players.

He has a unique meter management meta where SZ can forgo ex crushing hammer for ice ball, converting comparable damage conversions until the opponent uses a breaker, and then go in for max damage hammer combos when there's no fear of losing a precious bar to a breaker. Ie, ex crushing hammer should be gated behind your opponents abundance of meter.

His ability to counter zone, with ice ball trades or ex ice blast beating zoning completely, makes him dangerous from all ranges. In matches where clone is borderline useless (Special Forces Sonya), rush down may be more of an asset than clone meta.

It'd be an uphill battle, but a testament to skill if you can do it successfully. The issue is he does many things well, but too many characters do what he can, only objectively better.

Thanks for the info. I'm very good with that variation, but I don't think I could go too far with it. If normal ice hammer had faster startup and recovery things would be a lot better..i mained sub for a while but I think it's time to move on. I'm not interested in grandmaster..u mainly have to depend on corner game.

 

[RM Ree]

Faster start up I agree with. It's been said before, but Cryomancer would be very scary if hammer moved like Kotal's OH sword. You could add b3 xx hammer and b33 xx hammer to the arsenal, leading to insane mix up potential... Right now, he feels like a novelty built on the back of fundamentals.

 

[KoldSpecter]

While playin' GM Sub Zero:

 

[matmusada]

I'm still of the mindset that Cryo-Sub's normals should incorporate his ice weapons, improve his range, imrpove upon his variation-specific strings, and of curse speed up his hammer.

 

[LeVL uP]

SZ need a full makeover... slow meter gain, doesn't even have mediocre damage output without meter, almost everything he does is punishable, why even put him in the game if this is the peak of NRS' s creativity with this character? There are sources all over the place to snatch ideas from and this is it? Name 5 good things you could say about SZ to a friend that would make SZ a worthwhile selection... i'll wait..

 

[llabslb]

40% metreless corner combo, with set up?

B2B2 D1 B12 ICE CLONE NJP D2 GRAB

I just recently found this and I kind of like it. Wouldn't say it needs a thread but it should be known if it isn't already. Only issue with the combo is the lack of advantage from the grab.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

40% metreless corner combo, with set up?

B2B2 D1 B12 ICE CLONE NJP D2 GRAB

I just recently found this and I kind of like it. Wouldn't say it needs a thread but it should be known if it isn't already. Only issue with the combo is the lack of advantage from the grab.

For easier execution and no risk of teching the grab (which costs you not only damage but corner reversal), and better advantage (not enough for Clone, but enough for B2 at least), you can get 39% off [B2, B2, 1, 1, B12xxClone, NjP, JiP, B12xxSlide]. Probably gonna be the better option everytime.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Why not just do 51% with...

B2 24 ice shatter b12 clone njp ji1 b12 slide?

 

[llabslb]

Shatter combos are completely different

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Cryomancer is probably tournament viable. He can kill if he opens up an opponent 3 times, but so can a lot of other characters.

Cryomancer is /not/ a mix up variation, and hammer should not typically be used as such as both versions are highly reactable. His strength is his indiscriminate damage in relation to screen position, and how fast he paces the match with short, damaging combos resetting to true neutral (cold blooded string is essential). Neutral becomes a strength when the player knows both SZ as well as the opponents options. Well placed d4 leads to frame trap b12, and that leads to damage. This is gospel for Cryomancer players.

He has a unique meter management meta where SZ can forgo ex crushing hammer for ice ball, converting comparable damage conversions until the opponent uses a breaker, and then go in for max damage hammer combos when there's no fear of losing a precious bar to a breaker. Ie, ex crushing hammer should be gated behind your opponents abundance of meter.

His ability to counter zone, with ice ball trades or ex ice blast beating zoning completely, makes him dangerous from all ranges. In matches where clone is borderline useless (Special Forces Sonya), rush down may be more of an asset than clone meta.

It'd be an uphill battle, but a testament to skill if you can do it successfully. The issue is he does many things well, but too many characters do what he can, only objectively better.

Excellent summary man

Hey you got any matches? I'd love to watch you play

 

[llabslb]

If you guys think Takeda is a bad MU, what about Stunt double Johnny Cage. I personally think he kicks the shit out of Sub

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I think sub wins vs all cage variations.

 

[llabslb]

Stunt double is really something else. The mix up capability, corner carry, mimic set ups, ugh. Ice clone AND Ice parry have no chance because a mimic shadow kick can punish and go through both.

I really need to hit the lab with this variation properly before I can say anything else.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

If you guys think Takeda is a bad MU, what about Stunt double Johnny Cage. I personally think he kicks the shit out of Sub

I think the nature of character that Cage is makes GM Sub-Zero much better against him than Takeda. He's a footsies/pressure character and Sub is an anti footsies/pressure character

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Stunt double is really something else. The mix up capability, corner carry, mimic set ups, ugh. Ice clone AND Ice parry have no chance because a mimic shadow kick can punish and go through both.

I really need to hit the lab with this variation properly before I can say anything else.

The shadow kick is really strong. I don't think it's enough however. But like you, I need to play that one a bit more to know for sure.

 

[Colest]

Faster start up I agree with. It's been said before, but Cryomancer would be very scary if hammer moved like Kotal's OH sword. You could add b3 xx hammer and b33 xx hammer to the arsenal, leading to insane mix up potential...

I don't know if I'd entirely agree with that. Presumably it would still be backdashable (like Kotal) and armoring out would be even more reliable since EX is still only one hit. Not saying I'm for or against, but Kotal would still have the scarier mixup game IMO.

 

[RM Ree]

I don't know if I'd entirely agree with that. Presumably it would still be backdashable (like Kotal) and armoring out would be even more reliable since EX is still only one hit. Not saying I'm for or against, but Kotal would still have the scarier mixup game IMO.

So... What is it that you are not entirely agreeing with? The quote wasn't saying SZ mix up would be better or scarier than Kotal's, just that SZ's Cryomancer mix up would be better or scarier with a faster start up on his hammer. I'm not sure you can disagree with the fact that faster things are harder to react to.

@I GOT HANDS I play boba buster sometime. I'll try and upload some matches to the match footage page. Other than that I've got some goofy camera recordings from times my buddy (JC/ Sonya) play. I'll send those in pretty soon.

 

[Colest]

So... What is it that you are not entirely agreeing with? The quote wasn't saying SZ mix up would be better or scarier than Kotal's, just that SZ's Cryomancer mix up would be better or scarier with a faster start up on his hammer. I'm not sure you can disagree with the fact that faster things are harder to react to.

I was merely pointing out that the overhead sword would have more advantages than this (hypothetically buffed) hammer and that both this new version of hammer and overhead sword are very unsafe block strings, even if they aren't read. Sub's would probably be even more so since b33 isn't an advancing string making backdashing out of it even easier. I was also disagreeing that Cryo Sub getting those two new mixup strings might be overwhelming, which seems to be the subtext of the post. If it's not then I'm sorry for misinterpreting.

Again though not saying that is a buff I'd advocate for either way.

 

[STK]

What buffs are everyone waiting on? GM, unbreakable or cryo? What could they do to make unbreakable good? ex ice barrier have better recovery to make links possible? better active frames on shield? im waiting on a damage boost to f42, b33 ice ball for all and a fix on clone myself.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'd just like to see EX-Clone not go away on block. And come out consistently. That's all SZ needs. 1 playable and working variation and I'll be satisfied

 

[ZeZe]

TBH I've lost all energy for other multiple threads with proposed changes to all SZ's variations. Now I only pray they won't ruin him further, which, as MK9 history proves, they are very capable of. It just crossed my mind that maybe, just maybe, it would be really good if again he is not mentioned at all in patch notes.
Currently he is mid tier, with 1 variation that will be pretty ok, if top tiers get adjusted a bit. After this patch he can end up low tier with more losing MUs then even ones with not 2 but all variations useless, unreliable or broken. I'd be happier if they made changes slowly, regularly, but no - it looks like they are going to create almost entirely new game we all will have to learn again (which is ok to me. What I fear is, it will cause brand new problems).

 

[RM Ree]

Cryo- Looking for at least a +2 on Cold-Blooded. Ex crushing hammer could use a speed boost to give him some mix up potential, but that's like a luxury buff. Air hammer could use some love. Give us the ability to enhance it and make it launch on hit (like Jax ex ground pound).

GM- This variation doesn't need "buffs," it needs to work properly. Ex statue needs to work when the game receives the input to be a viable asset, offensive and defensive alike. If he's too close, make the clone form right at the distance where it's clear of the breathing hit boxes, as that's where we want our clone anyway. Have the rest of the animation run normally. Also fix the cylinder so people aren't just poking straight through the thing. Jumping over it to punish SZ throwing ice balls is perfectly fine, I mean things like Jax just kneeing through it or Erron Black jabbing right through it.

Unbreakable- There's little reward for successful parry or having aura active as is. SZ needs ex aura (not standard) to be faster to create some true block strings, opening up the ability to confirm off b33 (b33 xx ex aura, run b12 xx ice ball) as well. Give parry a natural and instant cancel when successful making it viable vs zoning. It should also give a slight meter boost when successful, just enough to deter the opponent from starting a meter building war. Ex parry should recover much faster when unsuccessful.

 

[Lokheit]

Cryomancer:

- Cold Blooded as a special move (like happened with Warlock Quan Chi portal).

- Air Hammer as a low and plus on block like similar aerial ground pounds to allow some pressure and make the move at leas usable.

Unbreakable:

- Parry holdable and cancelable. Give this to the variation and suddenly it jumps from one of the worst to very interesting.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

So were the changes to Ice clone strictly for making ex clone come out more consistently, or are people seeing other effects of it as well?

 

[Ravosa]

So were the changes to Ice clone strictly for making ex clone come out more consistently, or are people seeing other effects of it as well?

Yeah I'm curious about this too. Hoping the window for clone is larger in corner combos so that maybe the b&b b2 combo on males works of females. Yeah right...