Tech Debate with ya boi Soup

[Insuperable]

With the last three (NEC, KiT, SCR) major Mortal Kombat 9 tournaments nearing, ya boi Soup has thought of some things that could be debated and fleshed out.

I'll keep it to 2 per character.
THESE ARE ALL MY OPINIONS

Baraka:
-The reason he is the best low tier character is because he has the best whiff punish in the game (blade charge).
-Baraka's space control is top 5 within sweep distance

Cyrax:
-Cyrax would possibly drop out of top 5 if he didn't have his command grab
-Cyrax's breaker trap is the best find of the community, and rarely anyone uses it

Ermac:
-If Ermac had armor, he would be a top 10 contender
-More Ermacs need to start using lift as a whiff punish, when in sweep distance, rather than push

Jax:
-Top 10
-If f41 hit low hitboxes, he would be top 5

Jade:
-Jade players need to start using d3 to counter jump ins rather than getting their normals stuffed
-Standing reset after b2 is her most underrated tool

Freddy Krueger:
-Green goo/ex green goo is such a powerful tool in the corner, and I rarely see it used
-Freddy is strongest in the corner

Johnny Cage:
-Standing 3 is insanely underrated as a footsies tool
-f32 is insanely overrated

Kabal:
-Kabal's strongest point isn't his zoning or his pressure. His strongest is that you have to guess in every moment of the fight
-f32 buzzsaw/overhead is Kabal's strongest pressure tool

Kano:
-air ball is incredibly strong against projectiles
-jump kick air throw/jump kick d1 upball is his strongest option select

Kenshi:
-Kenshi vs Kung Lao really isn't that bad
-f32 can be armored out of, and no one abused that.

Kitana:
-Jump kick fan is numero uno
-Dash under ex lift should've been used more against crossups

Kung Lao:
-The fear of the spin was Kung Lao's greatest threat, not his mobility
-ex ground hat in the corner needed to be executed more

Liu Kang:
-Dragon stance was super good
-With good fireballs, you can get a 4 instant air fireball juggle off of an opponent's single jump

Mileena:
-U4 into 42 should've been used more often
-234 was a really, really underused string

Nightwolf:
-f3 is amazing AND SHOULD BE A LOW
-lightning swag combos automatically make him better than most of the cast

Noob Saibot:
-If he had higher damage output, outside of the corner, Noob could possibly be top 10
-Ex confuse was Noob's best special that nobody ever used, except for DR

Quan Chi:
-Best d1 hitbox in the game
-Worst d1 startup frames in the game

Raiden:
-b2f11+2 was a great string
-jump kick superman option select were underused

Reptile:
-Fast and slow projectiles gave Reptile an advantage in the zoning game
-Invisibility could have been used more

Rain:
-b2 ex roundhouse cancel leads to a full combo on his, and can't be interrupted on block
-That water hand move is a really good spacing tool

Scorpion:
-d4 was a strong AA
-ex hellfire was an underrated combo ender

Sektor:
-Sektor does not beat Cyrax
-jump kick is Sektor's best conditioning tool

Shang Tsung:
-One of the best pressure kits in the game
-One of the worst escape kits in the game

Sheeva:
-Amazing AA grab
-d3 crouch command grab is a bill

Sindel:
-Most technical character to use
-Her corner resets were ridiculous

Skarlet:
-Dagger cancels are more annoying than useful
-f33 ex dagger cancel was underrated

Smoke:
-His resets are easily to hit than people say they are
-d1 smoke away is too strong and underused

Sonya:
-Stupid character

Stryker:
-x-ray is more reliable than ex roll
-Has great AA options for jump ins (standing 4) and crossups (uppercut)

Sub-Zero:
-22 is a great crossup AA
-22slide is a man's way of finishing a round

Cyber Sub-Zero:
-Everyone knows how to make Cyber Sub-Zero better, but no one knows how to make him good
-Parry is overrated

 

[Awkward Sloth]

Nightwolf : Costume 2 is the superior choice because it offers more bare chested goodness and Wolf headdress with mantle is swag. However costume 1 does look more stripperish.

Rebuttle?

 

[PPJ]

Sektor:
-Sektor does not beat Cyrax

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Quan Chi:
-Best d1 hitbox in the game
-Worst d1 startup frames in the game


Sub-Zero:
-22 is a great crossup AA
-22slide is a man's way of finishing a round

I firmly believe that if Quan's D1 were 6 frames, he would be way more viable. D1 EX Rune would suddenly be an option.

And when I play Sub, I always do 22 slide or B1 slide. It's gonna hit!

 

[Youphemism]

I've missed out ones I agree with or have no opinion on.

Baraka:
-The reason he is the best low tier character is because he has the best whiff punish in the game (blade charge). I'd say it's also to do with him having a standing reset into 50/50 and good damage...

Cyrax:
-Cyrax would possibly drop out of top 5 if he didn't have his command grab Nah bomb resets and breaker traps are too broken to stop him being top 5 imo.

Jax:
-If f41 hit low hitboxes, he would be top 5 Considering who's actually in the top 5 and the reasons they're top 5 I disagree.

Freddy Krueger:
-Freddy is strongest in the corner Hmm unless he has infinites in the corner against some characters like some other characters do then I wouldn't say he's the strongest but he's definitely strong.

Kano:
-jump kick air throw/jump kick d1 upball is his strongest option select I've never even seen this being used but I doubt it. His b2 and f3(?) are really good and lead into good damage.

Kenshi:
-f32 can be armored out of, and no one abused that. Sheeeeeeeiiiitttttt didn't even know that so yeah I agree.

Mileena:
-U4 into 42 should've been used more often I would say it was used pretty often or often enough.
-234 was a really, really underused string Yeah because it isn't comboable into anything, I mean yeah it's neutral but so is 23 and it's comboable.

Nightwolf:
-f3 is amazing AND SHOULD BE A LOW YES YES YES YES YES YES YEEEEEEESSSSSS

Skarlet:
-f33 ex dagger cancel was underrated Meh, f33 has shitty cancel advantage.

Sonya:
-Stupid character and braindead, don't forget braindead.

Cyber Sub-Zero:
-Parry is overrated Hell no, that shit is useful.

What say you?

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

What's jade standing reset after b2?

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

This was the first time In a long time I read an OP's entire post. Props Soup you've done it again.

 

[james1926]

Please find my comments in bold:

Baraka:
-The reason he is the best low tier character is because he has the best whiff punish in the game (blade charge). - Agree
-Baraka's space control is top 5 within sweep distance - Agree

Cyrax:
-Cyrax would possibly drop out of top 5 if he didn't have his command grab - Strongly Agree
-Cyrax's breaker trap is the best find of the community, and rarely anyone uses it - It's being used a lot online

Ermac:
-If Ermac had armor, he would be a top 10 contender - Agree
-More Ermacs need to start using lift as a whiff punish, when in sweep distance, rather than push - No comment

Jax:
-Top 10 - Agree
-If f41 hit low hitboxes, he would be top 5 - Maybe a debatable top 5, but he would beat Mileena and Quan, and do much better against Cage, Sonya, Kitana

Jade:
-Jade players need to start using d3 to counter jump ins rather than getting their normals stuffed - Jade players..
-Standing reset after b2 is her most underrated tool - What standing reset?

Freddy Krueger:
-Green goo/ex green goo is such a powerful tool in the corner, and I rarely see it used
-Freddy is strongest in the corner - Nah, just teleport away and zone

Johnny Cage:
-Standing 3 is insanely underrated as a footsies tool - Maybe
-f32 is insanely overrated - No

Kabal:
-Kabal's strongest point isn't his zoning or his pressure. His strongest is that you have to guess in every moment of the fight - Well, you have to guess because of his zoning and pressure.
-f32 buzzsaw/overhead is Kabal's strongest pressure tool - Disagree, NDC is the strongest.

Kano:
-air ball is incredibly strong against projectiles - Agree
-jump kick air throw/jump kick d1 upball is his strongest option select - LOL

Kenshi:
-Kenshi vs Kung Lao really isn't that bad - Agree
-f32 can be armored out of, and no one abused that. - Had no idea!

Kitana:
-Jump kick fan is numero uno - Strongly agree
-Dash under ex lift should've been used more against crossups - Agree

Kung Lao:
-The fear of the spin was Kung Lao's greatest threat, not his mobility - Yeah
-ex ground hat in the corner needed to be executed more - Don't know

Liu Kang:
-Dragon stance was super good - Really?
-With good fireballs, you can get a 4 instant air fireball juggle off of an opponent's single jump - Really???

Mileena:
-U4 into 42 should've been used more often - Don't know, it's risky against characters with armor.
-234 was a really, really underused string - It's her best string to do after a JIP against characters with armor.

Nightwolf:
-f3 is amazing AND SHOULD BE A LOW - Agree
-lightning swag combos automatically make him better than most of the cast - Most of the cast?

Noob Saibot:
-If he had higher damage output, outside of the corner, Noob could possibly be top 10 - Agree
-Ex confuse was Noob's best special that nobody ever used, except for DR - Nah, it wasn't that good

Quan Chi:
-Best d1 hitbox in the game - Better than Kitanas?
-Worst d1 startup frames in the game - Fact

Raiden:
-b2f11+2 was a great string - I don't know its properties =/
-jump kick superman option select were underused - Yes

Reptile:
-Fast and slow projectiles gave Reptile an advantage in the zoning game - Yes
-Invisibility could have been used more - Don't know, I find invisibility moves useless.

Rain:
-b2 ex roundhouse cancel leads to a full combo on his, and can't be interrupted on block - Didn't know, everyone is doing 4,3
-That water hand move is a really good spacing tool - Just good, not really good =)

Scorpion:
-d4 was a strong AA - Agree
-ex hellfire was an underrated combo ender - Agree

Sektor:
-Sektor does not beat Cyrax - Don't know
-jump kick is Sektor's best conditioning tool - Yes

Shang Tsung:
-One of the best pressure kits in the game - Yes
-One of the worst escape kits in the game - Yes

Sheeva:
-Amazing AA grab - Yes
-d3 crouch command grab is a bill - No Comment

Sindel:
-Most technical character to use - No comment
-Her corner resets were ridiculous - No comment

Skarlet:
-Dagger cancels are more annoying than useful - Maybe
-f33 ex dagger cancel was underrated - Don't know

Smoke:
-His resets are easily to hit than people say they are - Don't know
-d1 smoke away is too strong and underused - Don't know

Sonya:
-Stupid character - You must be a Quan chi main

Stryker:
-x-ray is more reliable than ex roll - Lol
-Has great AA options for jump ins (standing 4) and crossups (uppercut) - Agree

Sub-Zero:
-22 is a great crossup AA - Strongly agree
-22slide is a man's way of finishing a round - The man may get a big surprise when it's blocked

Cyber Sub-Zero:
-Everyone knows how to make Cyber Sub-Zero better, but no one knows how to make him good - Stupid character
-Parry is overrated - Stupid parry

 

[RelentlessOhio]

LOL @ Sonya being stupid.

She rapes face. And judging by the size of her tits, I don't guess that's a bad thing.

 

[Laos_boy]

What's jade standing reset after b2?

Her otg

 

[Laos_boy]

Kitana
- jk fan is her best tool. 40%. JbP was under rated as well. And iaAss was an underrated move

Skarlet
- I think f33 is good but I'd use it more if f31 was an overhead

 

[Crimson Panther]

Who uses F32 still? It's kinda useless now it doesn't link with nut punch.

Cyrax breaker trap is amazing. But requires the correct spacing otherwise then jump or even dash away from the bomb. Plus you want people to break so he use that bar later to do the damage.

I agree with the rest. Except Sonya....lol.

With Kabal I'm pretty sure that mix up isn't his best pressure tool...NDCS are lol.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Baraka has the best whiff punish?
What, you've never seen a Smoke Bomb before?

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Her otg

I have never seen this before how does it work?

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

For Rain, B2 xx Normal Roundhouse Cancel can be combo'd off of on hit, you didn't actually need to use meter, but it made it way easier.

I think that was the only normal he could do that off of without meter.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I have never seen this before how does it work?

You hit them with a B2, and right as they touch the ground you d4 them or pretty much any other normal, and it stands them up. It's blockable, sort of like an instant otg... it was really weird.

 

[RemainSolid]

I agree on Sonya.

 

[STRYKIE]

Will post a full reply later, just throwing out a quick correction:

Who uses F32 still? It's kinda useless now it doesn't link with nut punch.

Cyrax breaker trap is amazing. But requires the correct spacing otherwise then jump or even dash away from the bomb. Plus you want people to break so he use that bar later to do the damage.

I agree with the rest. Except Sonya....lol.

With Kabal I'm pretty sure that mix up isn't his best pressure tool...NDCS are lol.

Just for the record, GGA Han found completely guaranteed breaker trap setups that will launch you regardless of what you do.

 

[Wemfs]

@Insuperable Would you please explain why you think Noob would be top 10 aside from a dmg buff mid-screen.

And Madzin used Noob's EX Ghostball all the time, so D.R. wasn't the only one.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Cyrax breaker trap is amazing. But requires the correct spacing otherwise then jump or even dash away from the bomb. Plus you want people to break so he use that bar later to do the damage.

Yeah, what @STRYKIE said.

One backdash from net > MB Bomb > Medium Bomb > Uppercut, and if they break it, the bomb gets a free reset on them, otherwise the uppercut hits them into the bomb where you can > B2 (second hit) > Saw

It's over 40% unclashable, pretty broken and suuuuper easy.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Yeah, what @STRYKIE said.

It's over 40% unclashable

 

[PND_Ketchup]

You're right about Sektor. Cyrax beats him 6-4 because of meter drain. Sektor can't use his Homing Missile pressure to get a counterattack going, and one bad net trade means you have to be careful with your strongest footsie tools. CYrax also has a GDLK d3.

The jump back kick was used so much by me here, It was called "the Ryan". Fucking love Jump back kick.

 

[coolwhip]

Baraka:
-The reason he is the best low tier character is because he has the best whiff punish in the game (blade charge). Best whiff punisher in the game is Smoke bomb, but I do think Baraka is the best of the shitters, yes.
-Baraka's space control is top 5 within sweep distance. I don't know about that.

Cyrax:
-Cyrax would possibly drop out of top 5 if he didn't have his command grab. Agreed.
-Cyrax's breaker trap is the best find of the community, and rarely anyone uses it. 100%. You have to make the choice between dying or losing your meter and dying (well, not dying, but 40% is nothing to sneeze at).

Ermac:
-If Ermac had armor, he would be a top 10 contender If armor was on lift, yeah, possibly.
-More Ermacs need to start using lift as a whiff punish, when in sweep distance, rather than push. It's worth considering.

Jax:
-Top 10. No.
-If f41 hit low hitboxes, he would be top 5. Hell no.

Jade:
-Jade players need to start using d3 to counter jump ins rather than getting their normals stuffed I know shit about Jade. Can't comment.
-Standing reset after b2 is her most underrated tool. See above.

Freddy Krueger:
-Green goo/ex green goo is such a powerful tool in the corner, and I rarely see it used. It's a ridiculous tool in general, the ex version at least.
-Freddy is strongest in the corner. I defer to the corner master, M2Dave.

Johnny Cage:
-Standing 3 is insanely underrated as a footsies tool Maybe not insanely given that a lot of times it's just better to go for F3 or B3, especially given their effectiveness as counterpoking tools, but yea.
-f32 is insanely overrated. It's good.

Kabal:
-Kabal's strongest point isn't his zoning or his pressure. His strongest is that you have to guess in every moment of the fight Yup.
-f32 buzzsaw/overhead is Kabal's strongest pressure tool They compliment his pressure and make it ridiculous. It's not that you have to guess between blocking high or low, but you also have to guess whether to poke or not, making it worse than a 50/50.

Kano:
-air ball is incredibly strong against projectiles I don't know about that.
-jump kick air throw/jump kick d1 upball is his strongest option select Agreed.

Kenshi:
-Kenshi vs Kung Lao really isn't that bad 100% correct.
-f32 can be armored out of, and no one abused that. I need to test this.

Kitana:
-Jump kick fan is numero uno Well, yeah.
-Dash under ex lift should've been used more against crossups Mash D1 bro.

Kung Lao:
-The fear of the spin was Kung Lao's greatest threat, not his mobility Yeah, that's how Lao's pressure works and why he doesn't have reliable mids. It's also why he has relatively subpar poke. After every block string, you have to guess whether to press buttons or not. If he makes you respect the spin, he gets continuous pressure.
-ex ground hat in the corner needed to be executed more Disagree. If I'm going to spend meter in the corner, ex tele is probably a better option. Ex ground hat is cool but somewhat gimmicky, though it does handcuff opponents and if you get a grab, it leads to crazy damage.

Liu Kang:
-Dragon stance was super good I think it's more underrated than super good.
-With good fireballs, you can get a 4 instant air fireball juggle off of an opponent's single jump I'm not sure I get this.

Mileena:
-U4 into 42 should've been used more often No idea.
-234 was a really, really underused string Ditto.

Nightwolf:
-f3 is amazing AND SHOULD BE A LOW YES.
-lightning swag combos automatically make him better than most of the cast NO. He's dumb.

Noob Saibot:
-If he had higher damage output, outside of the corner, Noob could possibly be top 10 Absolutely not.
-Ex confuse was Noob's best special that nobody ever used, except for DR Madzin used that a lot. It's swaggy as hell.

Quan Chi:
-Best d1 hitbox in the game It's up there.
-Worst d1 startup frames in the game Possibly, yeah.

Raiden:
-b2f11+2 was a great string It has its uses but nah.
-jump kick superman option select were underused Slightly.

Reptile:
-Fast and slow projectiles gave Reptile an advantage in the zoning game Yeah.
-Invisibility could have been used more Always looked at it as a gimmick but I could be wrong.

Rain:
-b2 ex roundhouse cancel leads to a full combo on his, and can't be interrupted on block
-That water hand move is a really good spacing tool

Scorpion:
-d4 was a strong AA Possibly, but he has better options for AA's.
-ex hellfire was an underrated combo ender I think it's always better going for the void/vortex.

Sektor:
-Sektor does not beat Cyrax Yeah, Sektor beating Cyrax is probably a bill.
-jump kick is Sektor's best conditioning tool I don't know.

Shang Tsung:
-One of the best pressure kits in the game Yes.
-One of the worst escape kits in the game Yes.

Sheeva:
-Amazing AA grab I wouldn't know. I play Lao.
-d3 crouch command grab is a bill See above.

Sindel:
-Most technical character to use If you try to master levi cancels, she might be.
-Her corner resets were ridiculous They're awesome.

Skarlet:
-Dagger cancels are more annoying than useful I don't know about that character.
-f33 ex dagger cancel was underrated See above.

Smoke:
-His resets are easily to hit than people say they are Fuck yes.
-d1 smoke away is too strong and underused Fuck yes.

Sonya:
-Stupid character Fuck yes.

Stryker:
-x-ray is more reliable than ex roll "Stryker is broken" -- DJ L Toro circa 2012/2013.
-Has great AA options for jump ins (standing 4) and crossups (uppercut) See above.

Sub-Zero:
-22 is a great crossup AA Yeah, but it can be a touch inconsistent.
-22slide is a man's way of finishing a round Who would do that?

Cyber Sub-Zero:
-Everyone knows how to make Cyber Sub-Zero better, but no one knows how to make him good Yup.
-Parry is overrated Yup

 

[Braindead]

With the last three (NEC, KiT, SCR) major Mortal Kombat 9 tournaments nearing, ya boi Soup has thought of some things that could be debated and fleshed out.


Rain:
-That water hand move is a really good spacing tool

@Tzu THE PISSING MOVE!!!

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

fuck