General/Other The Killing Art of Sub-Zero - Why He Needs ZERO Buffs

[Tom Brady]

Okay, but how would it not make him OP? : /

dude, dont tell me being able to slide under a projectile makes him OP....

 

[Tom Brady]

So... Wait. Subs is losing his reset, but Ermac can still rack up 51% off a jump-in punch with one bar? Cyrax can still rack up 55% off a jump-in punch with one bar? Hell, Ermac gets what, 47% if he combos off an uppercut? This is a turtling character, bear in mind. Sub Zero has to work for his damage, but it's not okay for him to dish out as much damage as a character that is rewarded for sitting back?

All I'm going to say is this: If Sub Zero isn't allowed to do upwards of 50% for one bar, Cyrax and Ermac shouldn't be allowed to do it either. There's no excuse for that. I still stand by the fact that Sub's freeze duration should be longer on the ground, so he at least has time to get in and do some damage on a full-screen freeze. Again, Cyrax can do this on a full-screen net, for much higher damage, but Subs can't do this on a full-screen freeze for a meager 25%? It's bullshit.

his slide buffs should be all he needs once they fix some of the other stuff in the game.

 

[zee]

dude, dont tell me being able to slide under a projectile makes him OP....

What chance is there for a damage increase now that he's losing the reset? I believe you're advocating for a slight damage buff.

 

[REO]

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use, meanwhile we have chars like Baraka who have to burn a bar just to get around a single projectile.

Sounds fair.

 

[Tom Brady]

What chance is there for a damage increase now that he's losing the reset? I believe you're advocating for a slight damage buff.

he wont need a damage buff when they buff his slide.

 

[zRaandom x]

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use, meanwhile we have chars like Baraka who have to burn a bar just to get around a single projectile.

Sounds fair.

I know rite?

 

[Tom Brady]

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use, meanwhile we have chars like Baraka who have to burn a bar just to get around a single projectile.

Sounds fair.

if baraka could get in anytime he wanted, you would never get around 22 1+2 lockdown. and its not on reaction, slide wont go under untill frame 5 so he cant instantly go under projectiles.

 

[Altaire]

his slide buffs should be all he needs once they fix some of the other stuff in the game.

Alright, I'll trust you on this. Sub was my main for a long time before I went to Cyber Sub (I played both from launch, but I later realized Cyber Sub fit my playstyle better), and he's still a very close second. I'd like to see him get some buffs here and there, but they'd need to nerf him to the point of uselessness to keep me off that character.

...That said, I do think Ermac and Cyrax still need to be toned down a bit, and I say this as someone who plays both.

 

[Mechacide]

dude, dont tell me being able to slide under a projectile makes him OP....

Well it depends. If he can Slide under all duckable projectiles on reaction, then it stops almost every zoner being able to do anything about Sub until he gets in on them, which is where they don't want him to be. If he has to telegraph a projectile, then fair enough. I assume the latter would depend on match-ups, anyway.

 

[Robotic]

his slide buffs should be all he needs once they fix some of the other stuff in the game.

Man, I don't even main Sub but you gotta understand Tom, some, ok, A LOT of people frequenting these threads, including myself, are not on your level. Not on your level, not in your same line of thinking most of the time. We're all guilty of it in other areas: We try to teach somebody something new, forgetting they are just grasping certain concepts and we assume they get our calculus language forgetting they're still doing geometry. We either pump our brakes and remember to speak in basic, easy to understand terms AND never assume they automatically understand things you yourself do, or we move on thinking they just don't get it or are being assholes.

I think Mechacide is just trying to understand why you came to those conclusions, not in a "WTF are you talking about?!" kinda way, but more of a "I don't know what you know, please elaborate if you're so kind", kinda way. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Eight]

sub is losing his reset in a patch. ex GF will be the same as normal freeze now in that the opponent will be able to escape by staying at neutral.

sub needs the buff the colt mentioned, he could use a 4%-5% damage buff overall.

he needs a buff, trust me... I WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN MOST!

Are you fucking kidding me.

 

[doomfarmer]

i just have to shake my head when people argue with someone that has played this game longer than almost anyone else. i know human is human, and everyone is driven by some sort of biased opinion, but for the most part you gotta give tom the benefit of the doubt. i read through some of these sub zero threads and see people saying how they shouldn't buff him blah blah blah but these people are not all sub zero players. they may not understand what he really needs and does not need because they haven't put in the same amount of time. you never see me in the "buff sheeva" thread saying yay OR nay. i don't know that fucking character well enough to have an opinion.

hopefully these sub threads are left to people that really know the character. that's all i'm sayin...

 

[Peckapowa]

ermac is fine the way he is, u shouldnt getting hit by ermac outside of lift punishes, he has 0 overheads and no comboable low strings (though it is solid)
perhaps cyrax's 85% shenanigans is a little much but oh well, sub still has superior strings to him and a much better pressure game that ermac

 

[Peckapowa]

Well it depends. If he can Slide under all duckable projectiles on reaction, then it stops almost every zoner being able to do anything about Sub until he gets in on them, which is where they don't want him to be. If he has to telegraph a projectile, then fair enough. I assume the latter would depend on match-ups, anyway.

slide is punishable on block, stay at a certain range and bait it out, noob still rapes sub

 

[Altaire]

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use, meanwhile we have chars like Baraka who have to burn a bar just to get around a single projectile.

Sounds fair.

I don't mean to be that guy, but it seems like they're more concerned with buffing the more popular characters (and hopefully nerfing the problem children like Cyrax and Kung Lao), rather than trying to work on the lame ducks. I agree that they need to buff some characters more than others, but I can understand why they're focused on the tourney scene as it stands. Even then, we don't know what they're planning for the rest of the roster yet, so for all we know, they might be getting a leg up.

I still think that overall, NRS just needs to work on stamping out their stacked matchups. I realize how hard that is; I can't see how it'd even be possible to make Shang vs. Cyber Sub any less one-sided without a drastic impact on the other matchups for both. That said, I want MK to be a game where every matchup can be won. I'd like to see as many 5/5 and 6/4 matchups as possible, so your ultimate solution to beating certain characters isn't "Go to Kung Lao". I won't hold out much hope for that because I know how hard it is to balance one matchup without affecting others, but hey, a man can dream.

 

[Robotic]

i just have to shake my head when people argue with someone that has played this game longer than almost anyone else. i know human is human, and everyone is driven by some sort of biased opinion, but for the most part you gotta give tom the benefit of the doubt. i read through some of these sub zero threads and see people saying how they shouldn't buff him blah blah blah but these people are not all sub zero players. they may not understand what he really needs and does not need because they haven't put in the same amount of time. you never see me in the "buff sheeva" thread saying yay OR nay. i don't know that fucking character well enough to have an opinion.

hopefully these sub threads are left to people that really know the character. that's all i'm sayin...

Rule: All context is lost on the internet. I give Mechacide the benefit of the doubt and think he is merely asking Tom for clarification so he can understand it the way Tom does, Tom knowing much more about Sub and all.

 

[Peckapowa]

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use, meanwhile we have chars like Baraka who have to burn a bar just to get around a single projectile.

Sounds fair.

we can all sit there and make the "why do u have this but baraka doesn"t" argument / fallacy for every single powerful thing in the game, just because something makes one char strong and another char doesnt have it doesnt make him op or anything or make the modification justifiable. and i will repeat once again that noob owns his little bro easy

 

[mozarus]

REO

So sub is going to be able to slide under projectiles like Mileena's sais on reaction and make them pointless to use...

90% true = almost pointless, slide is to fast for going under all projectiles.

 

[Altaire]

ermac is fine the way he is, u shouldnt getting hit by ermac outside of lift punishes, he has 0 overheads and no comboable low strings (though it is solid)
perhaps cyrax's 85% shenanigans is a little much but oh well, sub still has superior strings to him and a much better pressure game that ermac

...You're kidding, right? Since when does having overheads or low strings make a character good? Hell, how many 50/50 mixups in this game can't be fuzzy guarded with ease? Kung Lao? Block low during his normal strings, fuzzy guard his painfully telegraphed overhead if he tries to pop you. Voila, you just beat his "mixups". I can tell you right now that it's not his low string bullshit that makes him as overpowered as he is.

Ermac has an uppercut he can combo off, a really solid safe jump string, his F4/throw mixup to keep people out and above all this, combo damage out the ass. I don't think he's gamebreaking by any means, but he makes it all too easy to rack up the kind of big damage that most rushdown characters have to work for. Hell, some of them can't rack up that damage by any means, short of an X-ray combo.

P.S. Ermac has a safe overhead, by way of his U4. I still wouldn't recommend it because it's so easy to fuzzy guard, but the fact stands.

 

[Lyuben]

Ermac has issues that arent adressed by his high damage. His wake up options are not great, he cant deal with pressure well either. Ermac is a character that punishes well, he happens to punish SZ well. Dont go mad just because he has matchup advantage over us.

 

[Mechacide]

Rule: All context is lost on the internet. I give Mechacide the benefit of the doubt and think he is merely asking Tom for clarification so he can understand it the way Tom does, Tom knowing much more about Sub and all.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Tom edited a post further up that states Sub wouldn't be able to Slide under projectiles on reaction, because the duck-state starts at frame 5 of the animation. I'm glad that's clarified a little, but I'm afraid I still don't see how that wouldn't be on reaction... There's going to be a sweet spot, where Sub can hover around, just hitting b,f over and over in that one little zone, and if the opp (say Mileena, for example) starts the animation for their projectile, he'll start up his Slide and it'll go under.

I hope I'm wrong, but I really see this going very badly.

EDIT: It's a shame this thread has just turned into almost a clone (lol, pun) of the other three (or more?) threads about buffing Sub. This thread is supposed to point out exactly what makes Sub borderline OP and why he doesn't need a buff.

 

[Tom Brady]

ermac is fine as is, cyrax will be able to do over 50% still just not in the 70's-90's, the only nerf KL needs is no pushback on spin.

 

[Altaire]

Ermac has issues that arent adressed by his high damage. His wake up options are not great, he cant deal with pressure well either. Ermac is a character that punishes well, he happens to punish SZ well. Dont go mad just because he has matchup advantage over us.

"Over us"? He has it over more than Sub Zero. He also makes it all but impossible to pressure him on a knockdown, so I don't see where you get this idea that his wakeup options aren't great. If you cross him up, he'll roll or uppercut you (depending on how late you jump). If you try to attack him on wakeup, you run the risk of getting teleslammed for a full combo punish. If you block in anticipation of a teleslam... Well, you're both back to square one?

Ermac isn't exactly Shang Tsung in the way of wakeups. He has enough options to get himself out of trouble.

 

[ChopChop Ninja]

so much for that reset :wut:

not surprising I guess

 

[Lyuben]

"Over us"? He has it over more than Sub Zero. He also makes it all but impossible to pressure him on a knockdown, so I don't see where you get this idea that his wakeup options aren't great. If you cross him up, he'll roll or uppercut you (depending on how late you jump). If you try to attack him on wakeup, you run the risk of getting teleslammed for a full combo punish. If you block in anticipation of a teleslam... Well, you're both back to square one?

Ermac isn't exactly Shang Tsung in the way of wakeups. He has enough options to get himself out of trouble.

So whats your suggestion? Less damage? He would still have the tactics you described. What can you do then?