General/Other - Liu Kang XL Liu Kang Discussion Thread

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Why do you reckon ermac is a bad one my man ?

He's got a teleport, very good pokes, very good anti-airs, amazing footsies in Mystic, amazing mobility in Spectral, amazing trade in MoS. So, Liu Kang cannot do zoning, Ermac will always win the poke war, air-to-air, footsies, mobility, trades...

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Why is Alien bad for him?

Alien has amazing footsie tools (he's got overhead and low footsie tools. lmao), very good pokes, a braindread 50/50, very good pressure, good zoning, glitchs in his favor...

Every character that has good footsies and pokes will be a pain in Liu Kang's ass because Liu Kang is weak in pokes and footsies (his b2 has good range but it's -11 on block and 37 recovery frames. So, if Liu Kang misses the b2... it'll be very bad for Liu).

Edit: Maybe Alien vs Liu Kang is an even matchup.

 

[Derptile]

Shinnok outfootsies Liu Completely and Boneshaper's defensive options are some of the best in the game

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

I think Flame Fist's worst match up is actually Blood God, as Flame Fists's strengths - zoning and chip damage mean nothing to him. Fireballs are parried on reaction from 3/4 to full screen and the totem's + sun ray make chip damage pretty ineffective. Flame Fist's lack of mixups really hurts him in this matchup, as it's really hard to hit Blood God with enough overheads and lows to do anything, after factoring in totem's and sun ray.

I don't see why Alien is a bad match up, when Liu can punish regular flip with f1, negate armouring from negative frames with b12, limit Alien's wake up game with b12 (Liu doesn't need to guess which wake-up it is, unlike most characters), and zone pretty effectively.

I also don't understand why a lot of the others are bad matchups (in particular, Ermac, Shinnok, Vicious, Shaolin, and Swarm Queen), although Liu is only my alt so it's quite possible I don't fully understand the match up.

Ohh yeah. I forgot about blood god vs flame fist.

Edit: Liu Kang vs Alien is not very bad for Liu. It's maybe an even matchup.

Ermac: He's got a teleport, very good pokes, very good anti-airs, amazing footsies in Mystic, amazing mobility in Spectral, amazing trade in MoS. So, Liu Kang cannot do zoning, Ermac will always win the poke war, air-to-air, footsies, mobility, trades...

Shinnok: He's got amazing footsies, amazing pokes (d4 into hellsparks everytime. lol). Seriously, hellsparks is very annoying to Liu Kang. In Imposter, Shinnok has a very good teleport, he can use mimicry in mid-long range or even short range sometimes and be safe because it has A LOT of blockstun. The only thing that Liu Kang can do to punish Shinnok's overhead is F1, but it's not easy because shinnok's overhead has pushback. In Bone Shaper he has good zoning, a good reversal/wakeup... in Necromancer he's not broken like Imposter and Bone Shaper, but he still has advantage because of his footsies and pokes.

Vicious: very good pokes, very good reversals/wakeups, safe 50/50s against Liu Kang, amazing NJP, Ferra does not character for Liu Kang's fireballs...

Shaolin: same things...: very good pokes, very good reversals/wakeups, very good footsies, safe 50/50s against Liu Kang, amazing NJP, good projectiles...

Swarm Queen: Her pressure is very broken, and Liu Kang cannot do anything against it. lol. She's got very good pokes, very good footsies, her puddle is broken as fuck, amazing D2, safe 50/50, very good NJP... Liu Kang can't jump, can't zone, can't do footsies, can't get out of the ground...

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Ohh yeah. I forgot about blood god vs flame fist.

Liu Kang can punish regular flip with f1 but it's veeeery tight (1 frame to punish it). Liu Kang can use b1,2 against Alien's wake up but it's a guessing game - ''will he wake up? So i'll use b1,2... I used my b1,2 and he did not wake up, so now i'll be negative...'' the same way Liu Kang can troll Alien, Alien can troll Liu Kang. lol. Against Acidic, Kang's zoning does not work very well . Alien has amazing footsie tools (he's got overhead and low footsie tools. lmao), very good pokes, a braindread 50/50, very good pressure, good zoning, glitchs in his favor...

Ermac: He's got a teleport, very good pokes, very good anti-airs, amazing footsies in Mystic, amazing mobility in Spectral, amazing trade in MoS. So, Liu Kang cannot do zoning, Ermac will always win the poke war, air-to-air, footsies, mobility, trades...

Shinnok: He's got amazing footsies, amazing pokes (d4 into hellsparks everytime. lol). Seriously, hellsparks is very annoying to Liu Kang. In Imposter, Shinnok has a very good teleport, he can use mimicry in mid-long range or even short range sometimes and be safe because it has A LOT of blockstun. The only thing that Liu Kang can do to punish Shinnok's overhead is F1, but it's not easy because shinnok's overhead has pushback. In Bone Shaper he has good zoning, a good reversal/wakeup... in Necromancer he's not broken like Imposter and Bone Shaper, but he still has advantage because of his footsies and pokes.

Vicious: very good pokes, very good reversals/wakeups, safe 50/50s against Liu Kang, amazing NJP, Ferra does not character for Liu Kang's fireballs...

Shaolin: same things...: very good pokes, very good reversals/wakeups, very good footsies, safe 50/50s against Liu Kang, amazing NJP, good projectiles...

Swarm Queen: Her pressure is very broken, and Liu Kang cannot do anything against it. lol. She's got very good pokes, very good footsies, her puddle is broken as fuck, amazing D2, safe 50/50, very good NJP... Liu Kang can't jump, can't zone, can't do footsies, can't get out of the ground...

Thanks for the reply! I'll just respond to your points on Alien for now, although I'm still not convinced about the others to be honest.

On the f12 punish - yes it's tight but I think it's doable with practice. Also, even if you mistime it, it's not a huge deal, as the f12 will still armour break an ex flip if he's being a jackass and trying to punish your punish.

Even if you guess wrong on b12 you are only -3, which isn't a bad place to be as Liu. Your 6 frame f1 becomes 9 frames and you can still trade or even beat most mid counterpokes in the game. Yes you'll lose to a low poke but if you read that and block they will be negative and you take your turn back. Also, as flame fist (only Liu variation I play), you have the amazing threat of ex WP, which is reasonably safe, builds a lot of meter, and leads to decent damage. This makes the guessing game for them low poking back not particularly great, even if you are -3.

Would also say that flame fist outzones all variations of Alien.

 

[BigMacMcLovin]

Blood God is the worst for me when playing FF. Between his damage negation totem and his sun ray it is extremely difficult to make a dent on Kotal's life bar.

I always struggle against Kitana also.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Thanks for the reply! I'll just respond to your points on Alien for now, although I'm still not convinced about the others to be honest.

On the f12 punish - yes it's tight but I think it's doable with practice. Also, even if you mistime it, it's not a huge deal, as the f12 will still armour break an ex flip if he's being a jackass and trying to punish your punish.

Even if you guess wrong on b12 you are only -3, which isn't a bad place to be as Liu. Your 6 frame f1 becomes 9 frames and you can still trade or even beat most mid counterpokes in the game. Yes you'll lose to a low poke but if you read that and block they will be negative and you take your turn back. Also, as flame fist (only Liu variation I play), you have the amazing threat of ex WP, which is reasonably safe, builds a lot of meter, and leads to decent damage. This makes the guessing game for them low poking back not particularly great, even if you are -3.

Would also say that flame fist outzones all variations of Alien.

Yeah... you're right. I'll edit my post

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Blood God is the worst for me when playing FF. Between his damage negation totem and his sun ray it is extremely difficult to make a dent on Kotal's life bar.

I always struggle against Kitana also.

Against Blood God: Use Dragon's Fire - mix him up everytime - a plus run cancel into mixups: low, overhead, throw, stagger, bait, d3; do some zoning some a little bit.

Against Kitana: Use Flame Fist - you can zone her very well, so, when she jumps to avoid your fireballs, just use D2 . Zoning and D2 everytime

 

[Parasurama]

QUOTE="Bruno-NeoSpace, post: 2099794, member: 41263"]Against Blood God: Use Dragon's Fire - mix him up everytime - a plus run cancel into mixups: low, overhead, throw, stagger, bait, d3; do some zoning some a little bit.

Against Kitana: Use Flame Fist - you can zone her very well, so, when she jumps to avoid your fireballs, just use D2 . Zoning and D2 everytime [/QUOTE]

What about the thing she uses to delay her landing? it can cause D2 to whiff.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

QUOTE="Bruno-NeoSpace, post: 2099794, member: 41263"]Against Blood God: Use Dragon's Fire - mix him up everytime - a plus run cancel into mixups: low, overhead, throw, stagger, bait, d3; do some zoning some a little bit.

Against Kitana: Use Flame Fist - you can zone her very well, so, when she jumps to avoid your fireballs, just use D2 . Zoning and D2 everytime

What about the thing she uses to delay her landing? it can cause D2 to whiff.

That's very trick... you need to pay attention to that and guess sometimes, but it's not difficult

 

[Parasurama]

That's very trick... you need to pay attention to that and guess sometimes, but it's not difficult

Any clues? it gets me- guessing costs me a full combo....

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Any clues? it gets me- guessing costs me a full combo....

If she is very high in the air, you'll wiff your d2 if she does that tricky stuff, so, wait she gets more close to you, so you will have more chances to hit her.

 

[Malices' World]

So iv'e noticed that when i do the f213 jail string on the last hit (mid kick) it makes it fairly easier to fbrc and jail f213. Which im sure you were all well aware of but i figured i ask you godlike users too possibly confirm my hypothesis.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Dualist: A LOT of bad matchups (44), Flame Fist (12) and Dragon's Fire (7)

 

[the.hamburglar]

Is FF better than DF now with the recent nerfs and all?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Is FF better than DF now with the recent nerfs and all?

Dragon's Fire is still the best. He's A+ in my list, and Flame Fist is A.

The main problem of Flame Fist is hit/hurt boxes issues - his fireballs has small hitbox, so, it hurts A LOT his zoning and pressure.

Look:

 

[Orangutan]

Dragon's Fire is still the best. He's A+ in my list, and Flame Fist is A.

The main problem of Flame Fist is hit/hurt boxes issues - his fireballs has small hitbox, so, it hurts A LOT his zoning and pressure.

Look:

Respectfully disagree

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Respectfully disagree

Elaborate it

 

[Orangutan]

Elaborate it

I think he gets waayy more utility out of b12 than in dragonsfire. It's not as useful in DF since the fbc from it is 0 on block, and so the seasoned opponent knows its they're turn to poke or reversal after they see it.
A large portion of the cast basically can't wakeup against flamefist lol. There's only a few characters that can give ff real problems after windmill punches (characters with quick low starters or low armour)

Just my opinion though innit

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

I think he gets waayy more utility out of b12 than in dragonsfire. It's not as useful in DF since the fbc from it is 0 on block, and so the seasoned opponent knows its they're turn to poke or reversal after they see it.
A large portion of the cast basically can't wakeup against flamefist lol. There's only a few characters that can give ff real problems after windmill punches (characters with quick low starters or low armour)

Just my opinion though innit

When FF does B1,2, he can do: Windmill punch or Shaolin Flame. If he does windmill punch, it'll be a mind game - dragon's roar (7% or 10% the EX version), low fireball (7% or 10% with the Shaolin Flame ON), parry (13% or 21% if your MB it)... so, It's a high risk/low reward if your oponent knows the matchup. If you try to do B1,2 into Shaolin Flame, there will be a gap there, if Kang does B1,2 into EX shaolin flame, Kang will be -8... it's all gimmicks.

When DF does B1,2 into regular fireball run cancel, he'll be 0 on block, and it's not bad because he also can do a mind game - block his oponent poke or keep the pressure thinking that his oponent will think that Kang will try to block a poke. It's a low risk/low reward even if your oponent know the matchup. If Kang does B1,2 into EX fireball run cancel, he'll be +4 on block, this will catch his oponent trying to poke. Low risk/high reward.

Points where Dragon's Fire is better than Flame Fist:

- FF depends more on meter than DF because FF needs to spend meter to be totally safe on his windmill punch. DF just need to spend stamina to be safe and better than it, he will be PLUS;
- DF has the best Air Fireball of Liu Kang because it's faster, has bigger hitbox and the EX version is VERY fast and can combo after it if your catch your oponent in the air;
- DF's regular fireball is mid;
- DF's EX fireball it's better than FF's because it's faster, it's mid and it does more damage (14%) than EX fireball without Flame Fist ON (10%);
- DF has the best Flying Kick because it's safer (-8 on block);
- DF has the best plus frames of Liu Kang;
- DF does more meterless damage.


Points where Flame Fist is better than Dragon's Fire:

- FF's regular fireball is much faster than DF's, BUT it has hitbox issues;
- FF's fireballs does more damage when Shaolin Flame is ON - 10% fireballs and the EX fireball will do 15%;
- FF has a very good reversal which is the EX windmill punch - 12 startup frames, it has armor and it can armor break;
- FF has a parry;
- FF does more damage using meter;
- It's easier to play.

So... FF is supposed to have the best defensive of Liu Kang and it does because of the parry and EX windmill punch, but his fireballs has hit/hurt boxes issues... it hurts a lot his zoning... so, FF's zoning is in the same level of DF's zoning because the meter that DF does not need to spend on his pressure, he will use it on his zoning to do EX fireball and EX air fireball. If FF's fireballs get fixed, oh yeah, FF's zoning will much better, so FF's defensive will be amazing!

 

[the.hamburglar]

Elaborate it

I can agree DF is better than FF but all these FF coming out of the woods but yes. Back 1,2 is safe on fbrc so if they try to poke, you can usually block it in time and the unbreakable iafb combos are a plus too. Cancels to be plus are fun too. I think they are plus 8-12 not exactly sure with all the numbers being thrown out and hey, if you trade with someone on ex dragon kick, yours will usuaully win because its a two hit move. Dragons fire is just cool but man, FF isnt bad at all. It has crazy good block damage and if you can zone your opponents with flame on and fireballs, thats 10% and the Windmill punch is a mid which is good plus can be canceled to be safe with a gap.

 

[Orangutan]

When DF does B1,2 into regular fireball run cancel, he'll be 0 on block, and it's not bad because he also can do a mind game - block his oponent poke or keep the pressure thinking that his oponent will think that Kang will try to block a poke. It's a low risk/low reward even if your oponent know the matchup. If Kang does B1,2 into EX fireball run cancel, he'll be +4 on block, this will catch his oponent trying to poke. Low risk/high reward.

True, but you might as well just stagger with naked b12. It's only -3 by itself, and by cancelling into fbrc to block you are giving your opponent more time to react to what you're doing. B12 in ff as a stagger is absolutely incredible, i've yet to meet anyone online or at my local who can poke on reaction to a b12 stagger.. In dragonsfire theres no guaranteed pressure from b12-FBRC, liu is 0 on block and he has slow ass pokes.

And you're right about windmill punches being risky, but even if your opponent is aware of all the options he still has to make a very hard read. After windmill punches liu's options are....
- Dragons roar: which is -2 on block, or dragons wrath (ex) that blows up most armour and liu wins the trade
- Parry: counters all high and overhead normals and specials
- Low fireball: handles low pokes and jumpouts
- Shaolin flame: You cancel into ex windmill punches for some beautiful pressure that blows up late delayed armour etc
- Nothing: Baits slow armour for full punish
can anti-air attempted crossup jumps with standing 1 or uppercut

He's got so many options off of it.
Not to mention those 10% fireballs which are kinda silly.
Also an important one, dragons fire's damage in the corner pales in comparison to flame fists... 47% one bar etc

EDIT: We should play some matches to further analyse

 

[Orangutan]

Also Dragonsfire doesn't excel in as many matchups anymore since they gave lots of characters 7frame pokes and nerfed mb dragonkick to 0 on block

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

True, but you might as well just stagger with naked b12. It's only -3 by itself, and by cancelling into fbrc to block you are giving your opponent more time to react to what you're doing. B12 in ff as a stagger is absolutely incredible, i've yet to meet anyone online or at my local who can poke on reaction to a b12 stagger.. In dragonsfire theres no guaranteed pressure from b12-FBRC, liu is 0 on block and he has slow ass pokes.

The same way that FF can do a naked B1,2 , DF can do also do it, but in the moment that DF does B1,2 , my oponent will do a poke because he knows that Liu Kang will be -3 or 0 if he does the regular cancel... yeah, in this point, FF is better. But DF can do the EX cancel to be +4, so he's got a guaranteed presure from B1,2 is he spends one bar.

And you're right about windmill punches being risky, but even if your opponent is aware of all the options he still has to make a very hard read. After windmill punches liu's options are....
- Dragons roar: which is -2 on block, or dragons wrath (ex) that blows up most armour and liu wins the trade
- Parry: counters all high and overhead normals and specials
- Low fireball: handles low pokes and jumpouts
- Shaolin flame: You cancel into ex windmill punches for some beautiful pressure that blows up late delayed armour etc
- Nothing: Baits slow armour for full punish
can anti-air attempted crossup jumps with standing 1 or uppercut

He's got so many options off of it.

You're right. But about the anti-air, it's the same thing for Dragon's Fire.

Also an important one, dragons fire's damage in the corner pales in comparison to flame fists... 47% one bar etc

Yeah. I said that.

- DF does more meterless damage.
- FF does more damage using meter;

EDIT: We should play some matches to further analyse

Ohhhh yeah! But I'm on PC... so... you know . I hope NRS announces in ESL Season 3 Finals the support for PC.

Also Dragonsfire doesn't excel in as many matchups anymore since they gave lots of characters 7frame pokes and nerfed mb dragonkick to 0 on block

But it's still very strong. We won't use Dragon Kick MB everytime because it's not +2 anymore, but we still can end our pressure being plus - S1 is +2, 111 is +1, S4 is between +2 - +4, S3 is between +2 - +3... Because we won't use Dragon Kick MB everytime now, we will have more meter.

 

[Orangutan]

@Bruno-NeoSpace Yeah I agree with you on all that and thats a shame about the pc thing haha
I just always felt dragonsfire had more issues when he loses his turn for the reasons you listed about reversals. And I love dat flame fist chip tho