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Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

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ya'll really need to stop this fucking bullshit that "YEAH YOU CAN EASILY JUST FUCKING REACT TO A 19 FRAME OVERHEAD LOL"
19 can be done. human reaction on average visually is .250 . 19/60 = is about .32 seconds. It's a little more complicated than that but it's reactable.













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CliffP

Noob
You don't need zoning to be top tier lol.

Sub also doesn't struggle with zoning due to having the best walkspeed, wavedash, and dash in the game. People keep talking about the 50/50s but honestly what is more obnoxious to me is how good he is at footsies. His walkspeed combined with his D4, B3, F4 etc. gives him some of the best neutral in the game.

I'm still not gonna call for nerfs on him yet though. But I disagree that he will fall down the tier list, he will likely stay just below Geras, Sonya, Erron etc.
Yes you do. Zoning is strong in this game.

If you can’t hang with the zoners then you’re missing a vital part of the games flow. Geras Sonya and Erron all have tools that force you to respect them from range. Sub in DoW doesn’t have that without his slide.

Pokes aren’t the end all be all of footsies. That’s such a limited scope of the footsie battle.

He also doesn’t have the best walks and dash in the game. They’re just high up there but some other characters have better.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
LOL this op crap not nerfed yet?

Sum up of the reasons from sub mains in this thread not to nerf:

  • just flawless block it
  • just guess it
  • just don't get hit.
Lol nerf dat shit already it's getting ridiculous.
 

exflyingbooty

This dream has a sad ending
Yes you do. Zoning is strong in this game.

If you can’t hang with the zoners then you’re missing a vital part of the games flow. Geras Sonya and Erron all have tools that force you to respect them from range. Sub in DoW doesn’t have that without his slide.

Pokes aren’t the end all be all of footsies. That’s such a limited scope of the footsie battle.

He also doesn’t have the best walks and dash in the game. They’re just high up there but some other characters have better.
He has ex iceball/iceball which wins every fucking trade! If i hit him full screen with cetrion's boulder why can he still travel across the full screen and hit me?????????????????????? Come on now.
 

CliffP

Noob
He has ex iceball/iceball which wins every fucking trade! If i hit him full screen with cetrion's boulder why can he still travel across the full screen and hit me?????????????????????? Come on now.
You have at least two other zoning moves that recover faster than your boulder don’t you.

You’re just playing the matchup badly if you’re getting hit by enhanced ice ball full screen. You should play around it with your faster tools a bit, wait for it and boom wasted a whole bar of meter and if Sub uses another meter then there’s no threat of vortex.

If the Sub player out zones you through threat of enhanced ice ball alone then they’re just better than you.

Regardless, my point was referring to the top characters. He can’t hang with them in terms of zoning. I don’t have enough Cetrion knowledge to fairly/accurately argue this.
 
You have at least two other zoning moves that recover faster than your boulder don’t you.

You’re just playing the matchup badly if you’re getting hit by enhanced ice ball full screen. You should play around it with your faster tools a bit, wait for it and boom wasted a whole bar of meter and if Sub uses another meter then there’s no threat of vortex.

If the Sub player out zones you through threat of enhanced ice ball alone then they’re just better than you.

Regardless, my point was referring to the top characters. He can’t hang with them in terms of zoning. I don’t have enough Cetrion knowledge to fairly/accurately argue this.
I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think Sub belongs in S+ tier with Geras, EB, and Scorp, but saying he struggles with zoning is disingenuous. He’s had anti-zoning built into his core game strategy for nearly 30 years. Playing smart and patient with him puts the onus on any zoner to figure out how they can beat you.

Sub’s ain’t broken, he’s just really strong. He needs four fairly minor things to be at a perfect spot in this game:
  1. Nerf the brain dead characters a bit,
  2. Make shoulder, icicles, and wall actually good for something,
  3. Fix his low-profiling issues, and
  4. For god’s sake give him tournament variations with some of his cooler moves!
Thassit.
 
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DarkSado

Noob
You have at least two other zoning moves that recover faster than your boulder don’t you.

You’re just playing the matchup badly if you’re getting hit by enhanced ice ball full screen. You should play around it with your faster tools a bit, wait for it and boom wasted a whole bar of meter and if Sub uses another meter then there’s no threat of vortex.

If the Sub player out zones you through threat of enhanced ice ball alone then they’re just better than you.

Regardless, my point was referring to the top characters. He can’t hang with them in terms of zoning. I don’t have enough Cetrion knowledge to fairly/accurately argue this.
Bro he have ex ice ball and slide sub zero have no issue with zoning even regular ice ball good on trade lol.
 
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seanpon

Noob
fighting against characters with 50/50's that lead to vortexes sounds really fun and a big reason why I decided to buy MK11
 
This is why i don't like talking to sub-zero players remember when they said vanilla clone was perfectly fair
From my experience, they're worse than Scorpion players. Scorpion players are usually aware of how cheap Scorpion is, so they just live and let live. A Scorpion player wouldn't really challenge you on how hard it is to use him. Sub Zero players on the other hand are usually arrogant, and think all is well. I came to the conclusion that they think just because they don't use Scorpion, they have the moral high ground. They also seem to tbag after matches too. As if 50/50s and a projectile eating ice ball requires any brain power.
 

mrapchem

Noob
From my experience, they're worse than Scorpion players. Scorpion players are usually aware of how cheap Scorpion is, so they just live and let live. A Scorpion player wouldn't really challenge you on how hard it is to use him. Sub Zero players on the other hand are usually arrogant, and think all is well. I came to the conclusion that they think just because they don't use Scorpion, they have the moral high ground. They also seem to tbag after matches too. As if 50/50s and a projectile eating ice ball requires any brain power.
What if there was a Sub-Zero player who also plays Scorpion, like myself? Neither Scorpion nor Sub-Zero are cheap in this game, but I will tell you that Scorpion can be made to have more 50/50 mix-ups than Sub, he gets 40% for 1 bar, 38-39% off an anti-air (S3/S4), has the same obnoxious pokes that Sub-Zero has and not only has more mids, but they also hit from further ranges.

Yet, Scorpion is still not cheap and neither is Sub-Zero; Sub literally has only the overhead and the low (and slide if equipped) as mix-up options and of those options, two of them are full combo-punished if blocked. None of his other strings have any kind of low/overhead components for anyone to worry about. Don't get me wrong, Sub-Zero is a great character in this game that is powerful in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing, but saying that he's cheap because he can alternate between a 19-frame overhead that is indeed reactable in an offline setting (and still easily scouted in ideal online conditions) and a safe low that must be hit-confirmed into serious damage is a cognitive distortion of the highest proportions. The low has much shorter range than the overhead, so if the Sub player is at distance and is about to attempt a mix-up, it's likely going to be the overhead.

If Sub-Zero is really the bane of MK players' existence like many people claim that he is, then we should see him dominating the tournament scene, along with 'cheap-ass Scorpion'. But alas, we do not. It seems every time a tournament player picks up Sub-Zero and uses him in a competitive setting, they come up short - and we're talking about former EVO champions and mainstay Top 8 medalists here. Perhaps it isn't Sub-Zero or his users that are the issue here...allowing Sub-Zero players to be in range of his low starter and overhead option would seem to indicate a loss in the neutral. Sub-Zero - and Scorpion - can seem insurmountable in an online setting, but with a little bit of lab-work, patience, determination and a mastery of a decent character, their limitations become apparent.

The only normalization that Sub-Zero should get is a severe reduction in hit advantage on his standing 2 and on his B14 and B32 strings, so that Sub players can no longer freeze an opponent and then 50/50-loop them to death. There is much more to the character than that stupid loop and he will still be a great character without it. He needs no other nerfs of any kind, except perhaps to his ground freeze move because in the move's current setting, it creates a perpetual 50/50 loop situation off any hit-confirm. That move needs a complete re-work, but that's about it for Sub nerfs.

By the way, this is a reply not just to SwiftEagle, but to anyone and everyone who boldly proclaims that Sub-Zero is this unbeatable mix-up machine that destroys everyone with safe 50/50s. He is no such thing - he has exactly 2 50/50 mix-up options, one of which is full-combo punished on block. Good Sub-Zero players know this and thus do not rely on said 50/50s to win. They have to use their other tools to win, which is what you all should be doing also. Play a decent character against players in a wired, low-ping connection and get an actual decent neutral game and you will find the Sub-Zero match much easier, I promise.

I'll be damned if I sit idly by and watch perpetual complainers get a good character needlessly nerfed D'Vorah-style due to fake news about safe, unreactable 50/50s and a lack of lab work.
 
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CliffP

Noob
Bro he have ex ice ball and slide sub zero have no issue with zoning even regular ice ball good on trade lol.
You don’t have both those moves in a variation. Regular ice ball doesn’t go through projectiles.

You have no understanding of the character.
 
19 can be done. human reaction on average visually is .250 . 19/60 = is about .32 seconds. It's a little more complicated than that but it's reactable.
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Dude it is NOT reactable. AT 19f you can react that there's a move coming out, but you cannot react to tell which move that is. Do I need to bring back the Saucy Jack challenge again???
 
You don’t have both those moves in a variation. Regular ice ball doesn’t go through projectiles.

You have no understanding of the character.
So you think because his regular ice ball doesn't go through projectiles, he doesn't win the zoning war?
The irony that you say people don't understand Sub.....
 

methademic

UPR Methademic
So you think because his regular ice ball doesn't go through projectiles, he doesn't win the zoning war?
The irony that you say people don't understand Sub.....
Have you seen the start up of iceball? Compared to other projectiles? Yes it is a very useful tool but it is absolutely not an I win button for every projectile trade. I'm sure the answer is no.
 

CliffP

Noob
I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think Sub belongs in S+ tier with Geras, EB, and Scorp, but saying he struggles with zoning is disingenuous. He’s had anti-zoning built into his core game strategy for nearly 30 years. Playing smart and patient with him puts the onus on any zoner to figure out how they can beat you.

Sub’s ain’t broken, he’s just really strong. He needs four fairly minor things to be at a perfect spot in this game:
  1. Nerf the brain dead characters a bit,
  2. Make shoulder, icicles, and wall actually good for something,
  3. Fix his low-profiling issues, and
  4. For god’s sake give him tournament variations with some of his cooler moves!
Thassit.
So then we agree on everything but zoning. He has no way in either variation to overcome elite zoning with mids and he doesn’t have the best neutral moves or frames when he gets into mid range. He just has a strong mix up that has a ton of risk.

Every character in the game should be on the level of Sub and the others in his tier imo. He has his dirty shit but once you know how to overcome it, the matchup is totally cerebral.
 

CliffP

Noob
Dude it is NOT reactable. AT 19f you can react that there's a move coming out, but you cannot react to tell which move that is. Do I need to bring back the Saucy Jack challenge again???
This 19 frame move is totally reacatable because it's identifiable on frame 1. This isn't like some bullshit poorly designed GuiltyGear overhead where the low and overhead look the same for the first 10 frames.

If you needed to press a specific button reaction then yes the "human standard 15 frame reaction time" argument would falter because that doesn't include the mental strain of choosing a specific button to press. However you should always be crouch blocking the mix up. When you see the overhead, you let go of crouch. Letting go of a button actually has an even faster average human reaction time than pressing a button. You should be able to let go of crouch within 15 frames of seeing something or you simply have slow reactions and unfortunately that will be a major limiting factor in one's potential in a fighting game using this design philosophy (which is 95% of them).

So you think because his regular ice ball doesn't go through projectiles, he doesn't win the zoning war?
The irony that you say people don't understand Sub.....
Did you bother reading what I replied to?

Bro he have ex ice ball and slide sub zero have no issue with zoning even regular ice ball good on trade lol.
This user thinks Sub can both Ex Ice Ball and Slide. They haven't even bothered to look at the character's movelist before complaining about a matchup. He doesn't win the zoning war because he doesn't play the zoning war, he gets in to do his dirt. And there is no trade on regular Ice Ball unless you use a dumb move that you shouldn't use often in the matchup like Skarlet's low projectile. No sense complaining about something that wouldn't work if you didn't take unnecessary risks.
 

DarkSado

Noob
This 19 frame move is totally reacatable because it's identifiable on frame 1. This isn't like some bullshit poorly designed GuiltyGear overhead where the low and overhead look the same for the first 10 frames.

If you needed to press a specific button reaction then yes the "human standard 15 frame reaction time" argument would falter because that doesn't include the mental strain of choosing a specific button to press. However you should always be crouch blocking the mix up. When you see the overhead, you let go of crouch. Letting go of a button actually has an even faster average human reaction time than pressing a button. You should be able to let go of crouch within 15 frames of seeing something or you simply have slow reactions and unfortunately that will be a major limiting factor in one's potential in a fighting game using this design philosophy (which is 95% of them).


Did you bother reading what I replied to?



This user thinks Sub can both Ex Ice Ball and Slide. They haven't even bothered to look at the character's movelist before complaining about a matchup. He doesn't win the zoning war because he doesn't play the zoning war, he gets in to do his dirt. And there is no trade on regular Ice Ball unless you use a dumb move that you shouldn't use often in the matchup like Skarlet's low projectile. No sense complaining about something that wouldn't work if you didn't take unnecessary risks.
I never said he had both in one variation. Sub does win the ice ball trade WTF lol.
 

seanpon

Noob
sub zero players are the worst, if there so good with picking a 50/50 braindead vortex character do something productive in your life, go win a tournament. Instead they'd rather just pick an easy mode character and win some ranked matches thinking their good. Picking cheap characters to win in ranked won't make you a better player. Pathetic low lives
 

esc1

95% of TYM discussion: "It's fine"
All I know is thank god there isn't any of that slow play clone crap from mkx
 
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