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Question - Marksman Why not Marksman?

Azmodeus

Azmodeus

The harder I work, the luckier I get
Whenever I come onto these forums/play an Erron Black, it's always either Outlaw or Gunslinger. There was recently a poll that asked what his best variation was, Marksman was the last pick. I'm wondering why this is? Marksman keeps tick throws, 21122, EX sand grenade, caltrops, YOLO slides, and f1: all of Erron's best tools. He also gets meterless combos like outlaw does from db2, and he gets high meterbuild from run cancels and a projectile like Gunslinger (but no hat). So why does everyone seem to prefer Outlaw or Gunslinger? Don't get me wrong, Gunslinger and Outlaw are both outstanding variations, but I don't see what they each offer that Marksman doesn't alone.
Watch the video at about 33:35 and you'll see the pressure I'm talking about. Keep in mind tick throws can be mixed in.
 
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WiseM0nkey

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
Basically Marksman has nothing going for it other than cancels wich makes your 50/50s safe and are hit confirmable (some of them).

Gunslinger zones better and Outlaw rushes down better, simple as that. plus in Outlaw you get some kind of oki by using tarkatan stab.
 
Groove Heaven

Groove Heaven

Jobber-baron
Marksman has safe 50/50s but good opponents usually aren't having that cancel pressure shit. The somewhat high execution doesn't yield that great of a reward in the long run. Outlaw has better rushdown, armored combo starter, and very good njp. Gunslinger has decent zoning. I still think Marksman is viable and good, I just tend to feel more in control playing his other 2 variations.
 
Bucketfeet

Bucketfeet

Noob
Although I love marksman. I have to say being so stamina dependant kinda sucks too. This mean you can't break or else you're screwed. Can't use interactables as freely as other variations etc..
 
stamatis

stamatis

Όσα δε φτάνει η αλεπού. ........
There is no pressure,only damage and the yolo slides you said it is not a tool;).
 
T

T-box88

Noob
I prefer gunslinger cuz low shots nuke armor. Coin shot in the neutral is fantastic, even if they jump it anti airs well and you get a combo (its especially uselful in the corner after ending a combo with tackle) i also like the mind game factor when pressuring with sos after 21122 (am i going to go into low shots? Or am i going to cancel sos for another 21122 or a 50/50?).
 
Vigilante24

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
Despite how awesome the hat is, I personally prefer Marksman. Other than safe 50/50s (even tho that will prob be nerfed in a couple days), I love his pressure with 21122. He just has way more options and mind games than the other variations. I also find that I land the most 21122 ex grenade in this variation due to everyone attempting to mash thinking im gonna gun cancel into a 50/50. Last thing I love is just the pure meterless damage over the other 2. Full combo midscreen punish can get up to 35% no meter. That hurts...
 
T

T-box88

Noob
Vigilante24 said:
Despite how awesome the hat is, I personally prefer Marksman. Other than safe 50/50s (even tho that will prob be nerfed in a couple days), I love his pressure with 21122. He just has way more options and mind games than the other variations. I also find that I land the most 21122 ex grenade in this variation due to everyone attempting to mash thinking im gonna gun cancel into a 50/50. Last thing I love is just the pure meterless damage over the other 2. Full combo midscreen punish can get up to 35% no meter. That hurts...
Click to expand...
Yea and like 40% meterless in the corner too off of b33. Its nutty
 
DanableLector

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
1. Gunslinger
2. Marksmen
3. Outlaw.

Marksmans damage is silly, and safe. Baiting unsafe armored reversals with cancels is incredibly rewarding, and once the respect is there you can meet pokes after cancels with ex gernades.

Imagine how silly marksman would be with an outlaws armored starter, and an actual projectile?
 
Vigilante24

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
Do you not consider his rifle a projectile? Against certain chars, I use it as a zoning tool as well as cancels full screen for mindgames and bait stuff. Its similar to Jax HW zoning.
 
DanableLector

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
Vigilante24 said:
Do you not consider his rifle a projectile? Against certain chars, I use it as a zoning tool as well as cancels full screen for mindgames and bait stuff. Its similar to Jax HW zoning.
Click to expand...
Sure, It's technically a projectile but you can't use it as a traditional zoning tool. Most characters give no fucks about that slow ass rifle.

I think you hit the nail on the head saying it is like HW jax (albeit a poor mans version of it). I do use it as teleport bait on occasion, but zoning with it? Not in the traditional sense.

I use triple shots more on non teleport characters at the end of rounds. Cancel rifle into triple shots etc
 
T

T-box88

Noob
Vigilante24 said:
Despite how awesome the hat is, I personally prefer Marksman. Other than safe 50/50s (even tho that will prob be nerfed in a couple days), I love his pressure with 21122. He just has way more options and mind games than the other variations. I also find that I land the most 21122 ex grenade in this variation due to everyone attempting to mash thinking im gonna gun cancel into a 50/50. Last thing I love is just the pure meterless damage over the other 2. Full combo midscreen punish can get up to 35% no meter. That hurts...
Click to expand...
Yea i get yea. The reason why i dont play it though is because i feel i dont get much benefit other than safe 50/50's from using its run cancels. The point is i dont really view it as a pressure tool cuz your turn is always going to be over if your opponent blocks, so against competent players its not likely your pressure is going to be extended after a cancel. Good players will always react to the gun coming out and will either poke you or full combo punish you if you try to extend your pressure to keep your turn when your minus. So his run cancels only use to me is to make his 50/50's safe (obviously not a bad thing). Ive just found myself relying way more on ex sand grenade to stay plus which kinda makes his run cancels useless to me personally, id rather have a different move and thats why i switched to gunslinger. But everyone has different experiences and clearly you did =)
 
xGunShow

xGunShow

Toronto, Canada @GunShowXO
Marksman is a very solid Variation. It's better than Outlaw but not better than Gunslinger imo.

The main reason is because Gunslinger basically does everything Marksman does but better, aside from damage and some safety. However, it's not too big of a deal considering it's relatively easy to stay safe with Gunslinger and its Damage is already solid so the question becomes: Who has the better neutral?

Gunslinger.

Your options in the Stance are better than your options with the Rifle. Gunslinger is able to control the pace of the match far better with Mid shots and Anti Air shots combined with Caltrops while Marksman doesn't have much of a full screen game aside from getting the life lead and using the rifle shot to trade projectiles as a counter zoning tool. If both Gunslinger and Marksman are good up close but Gunslinger excels full screen as well, there's no reason not to pick Gunslinger. It's rare to have a match up that's bad for Gunslinger but good for Marksman. Same thing would apply to Outlaw.

Generally,

Gunslinger has:
- A Better AA option (db1, 2)
- Better Space Control/Zoning with Mid Shots
- Better Chip
- Better at holding a life lead and closing out
- Armor-Breaking options (db1, 2 / db1, 3)

- The Hat ;)

While Marksman:
- Is able to keep 50/50s safe (f13 Gun Cancel, b33 Gun Cancel, etc.)
- Has Greater Damage

And Outlaw:
- Has the best NJP
- Armored Launcher


If I had to rank them all out of 10, it would be:

Gunslinger: 8.5/10
Marksman: 8/10
Outlaw: 7.5/10

Nonetheless, all of Erron's Variations are very good and viable.
 
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