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Why neutral ducking S U C K S

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
Controversial title, right? Anyways, as you could guess from my title I'm about to say my two cents about neutral ducking.
People are saying the mix in this game is throw or mid. People go for this "mix" on knockdown all the time. Geras is inflated up the tier list because his "50/50" on this is near unreactable. FoxyGrampa made it to winner's finals with mostly this 50/50.
This is only "mix" if you're going for the riskiest defense option and trying to neutral duck. I see more people get stuck on that "50/50" and don't even have the reaction to tech grabs.
The only 50/50 you should be guessing on is which way to tech. If players just held their block keys and tried to react to the grab and tech, people would take so much less damage in the long run.

Now I know what the defenses are going to be:
1.) "Oh, Kutless, the throw crushing blows on escape failed are so op." okay yea lets say 320 damage at most. How about you tell me how bad that throw damage is after you get opened up by the third 400+dmg Kung Lao/Geras Bnb because you tried to neutral duck.
2.) "Oh, you dumb nerd it also makes highs whiff." Okay, well as someone who uses johnny cage a lot, not really. If you're caught in enough hit or blockstun someone can punish your neutral duck "read" with a high and once again: full combo you. All this to avoid 320 damage? It's the riskiest anti-high/throw option you have and everyone seems so keen to use it. I literally have ranked sets where my opponents do not block, at all.
3.) "You're just saying this because you're mad and lose a lot because of neutral ducking," I don't. There's all of one player I know with a consistent neutral duck game ( @Based Pr0digy ) but even he will say it is a dangerous game to play and I wholeheartedly agree. (Also he's psychic but that's a whole other thread.)
4.) "Reward is worth the risk" Okay so the combo open ups are nice, but you can get just as much with os'ing options. But you should save the D2 crushing blow for a very obvious throw/high. Or maybe as an actual whiff punish.

Options that should be getting used:
Neutral Jumping: If timed right and not used often can catch the opponent off guard, and punish throws as well as melee in one option.
Blocking and then reacting to tech: You just hold block and look closely to see if your character gets grabbed. The throw tech mindgame is a 50/50, but most players will throw you towards the nearest corner. So 2 for forward guess and 1 for sideswitch guess.
Also you cant be hitting block when you tech for those of you first time blockers.

So yea here's my thesis on why everyone neutral ducks too much and loses to fake stuff. Anyone care to voice an opinion? Friendly disagreements encouraged.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
The big problem for me is that online it's very difficult to tech a throw on reaction. Hell, even if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my opponent is going to try to back-throw me, and they do, my ass is still eating that throw. It's nonsense.

Neutral ducking reverses things quite a bit. Now, instead of eating the throw KB, they're eating your d2 KB into usually at least 45% without breaker.

As someone who throws constantly, I can say that playing @Sutter Pain made me realize how good neutral ducking can be. Sure, you're going to eat the occasional kombo, but you're also going to be scoring massive punishes while messing up your opponent's game plan. If throwing is a habit, you're going to be fighting your own impulses against an opponent who neutral ducks, and that's going to lead to freezing up and mistakes as you try to replace those impulses with something new.

Just look at the CEO footage for plenty of examples of people taking sets thanks to repeatedly neutral-crouching and punishing throw attempts. That was almost the single biggest factor in Foxy not taking his top-8 matches.
 
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thlityoursloat

kick kick
The big problem for me is that online, it's very difficult to tech a throw on reaction. Hell, even if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my opponent is going to try to back-throw me, and they do, my ass is still eating that throw. It's nonsense.

Neutral ducking reverses things quite a bit. Now, instead of eating the throw KB, they're eating your d2 KB into usually at least 45% without breaker.

As someone who throws constantly, I can say that playing @Sutter Pain made me realize how good neutral ducking can be. Sure, you're going to eat the occasional kombo, but you're also going to be scoring massive punishes while messing up your opponent's game plan. If throwing is a habit, you're going to be fighting your own impulses against an opponent who neutral ducks, and that's going to lead to freezing up and mistakes as you try to replace those impulses with something new.

Just look at the CEO footage for plenty of examples of people taking sets thanks to repeatedly neutral-crouching and punishing throw attempts. That was almost the single biggest factor in Foxy not taking his top-8 matches.
Teching grabs isn't that hard, not even online.
 
It's a read that can grant you a full combo punish, how can that suck? Game is full of reads, and people constantly punish and get punished for them. Always going for the safe stuff makes you predictable, and that actually sucks.
 
Lmaoooo I’m no psychic. but I mostly agree with this! Wake up neutral duck doesn’t cover as many options as wakeup jump. You should only be neutral ducking if you found a pattern in their throws & you want to exploit it. For example, I LOVE to throw after I see my d1 hit. My opponent will read that after like 2 throws & that’s when it’s time to neutral duck & punish. Ducking is not “the way” to beat throws. Use it on reads, not guesses.
 
I was having touble with a Geras online. I tried wake up D2 and his throws were beating it. I thought D2 beat throws ? Also, does the quick hop move beat out throws ? I just seemed like no matter what I dis I was guessing wrong. Netrual duck I ate a low poke , ducking block I would get thrown. Thrown out of rolls. Its frustrating. Like others have said, even if you can react you still have to guess throw direction which wouldnt be bad, but because of the way its set up, you have to remember which button techs which throw sepending on which side of the screen you are on.

Ive pretty much hit the wall in Kombat League over the throw 50/50.
 

roosTakk

Chode Juggler
I mean, they are all valid options...what's the problem? If you are trying to neutral duck grabs all game you are going to get wrecked. If you notice a pattern or grab tendency you can make the read and blow it up with d2 KB into combo. I get like 50% off it with baraka.

Seems like a pretty good option to me, but it's a read not a reaction...
 
Neutral crouch rewards a good read on a throw.

Foxy used Lao. He has some great strike throw setups. I thought Dragon had really good throw defense vs Foxy.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
There’s another “The meta is bad because it’s not the meta I specifically want” thread about every day now :confused:
I'm not saying the meta is bad, it's actually a meta that practically gifts me matches, I'm just saying that it's a bad meta to use and what people should be doing instead of eating damage.
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
It's a read that can grant you a full combo punish, how can that suck? Game is full of reads, and people constantly punish and get punished for them. Always going for the safe stuff makes you predictable, and that actually sucks.
The point of this thread is people act like neutral ducking is the only way to avoid throws.
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
The point of this thread is people act like neutral ducking is the only way to avoid throws.
good call, technically speaking, people can avoid throws doing these ? :
  • teching throw (obviously)
  • neutral ducking
  • reading the throw and poking with D1, D2, D3 or D4 some miliseconds before the throw occur ? :eek:
  • backing off (if having some space avaliable on the scenario) or backdashing if you notice the throw coming (another scenario that depends of the player be skilfull to read his opponent intention)
  • neutral jumping ? :confused:
you tell me !
 

KutlessMyth

mental and fundamental
My thread: "Hey neutral ducking shouldn't be your only tool to avoid throws. People are acting like throw/hit is an actual 50/50."
Everyone's reply: "LOOOOL HE HATES NEUTRAL DUCKING AND WANTS IT REMOVED FROM THE GAME!!!! SCRUB IT'S A GOOD READ!!!1!11!!!one!!!1!!"
@CrimsonShadow @Marlow etc
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm not saying the meta is bad, it's actually a meta that practically gifts me matches, I'm just saying that it's a bad meta to use and what people should be doing instead of eating damage.
I got you, I’m sorry — I’m just scarred by like 3 months of “The game sucks because I have to do X and it’s not what I want to do” threads, haha.

At this point I’m like a war veteran suffering from PTSD and jumping out of bed when someone slams a car door outside :D
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
I was having touble with a Geras online. I tried wake up D2 and his throws were beating it. I thought D2 beat throws ? Also, does the quick hop move beat out throws ? I just seemed like no matter what I dis I was guessing wrong. Netrual duck I ate a low poke , ducking block I would get thrown. Thrown out of rolls. Its frustrating. Like others have said, even if you can react you still have to guess throw direction which wouldnt be bad, but because of the way its set up, you have to remember which button techs which throw sepending on which side of the screen you are on.

Ive pretty much hit the wall in Kombat League over the throw 50/50.
You don't want to wake up D2. The idea is, if you think the opponent (Geras) is going to throw you as you wake up, simply wake up holding down. Don't mash D2. Wake up ducking and after you see his throw animation whiff, then you D2 Krushing Blow for that big damage. If you're mashing D2 on wake up, then yes, the throw will beat your D2.