Why is Injustice 2's meta considered stale?

[TarkatanDentist]

In recent months (from about when TMNT were released onwards) I've seen numerous comments about how Injustice 2's meta has become 'boring', 'stagnant' etc. etc. My question is... how?

Admittedly there's slightly less variety than in MKXL due to the lack of variations, but otherwise Injustice 2 strikes me as the exact opposite - a game which is far from stale and about which there's still tons more to learn. In particular, there are several dozen matchups which are still largely unexplored in the grand scheme of things, and quite a few characters generally whose capabilities are still unknown (Atom being the first example that comes to my head). And then there's the large proportion of viable characters and the huge range of play styles....

People are of course welcome to their own opinions... but I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around why part of the community thinks like this.

 

[Espio]

The problem with NRS' patching style in previous games is that it was so jarring that the expectation has become lots of a radical changes pretty much every patch. There would be patches where Kitana, Goro Takeda, Jacqui, Kenshi, Mileena and more got like 10-12 changes and these weren't minor changes like, "hit box improvements". It was stuff like Kitana's float pressure, major play style altering differences.

In comparison, Injustice 2 has been extremely concise and conservative in general about balance, seeing some characters as being really well balanced and barely touching them if at all over the life of the game. People aren't used to this level of restraint and precision so it feels very stale as a result to many of these people.


I totally understand the sentiment because of the major contrast from previous titles. The expectation is that we have to readjust every big patch and the total meta gets a shake up, we had no such patches like that in this game.


A lot of people complained that the games change too much in previous titles so NRS has attempted to rectify that, but that comes with negative perceptions and consequences too.


From my observations, a large majority of people are not utilizing delayed wake up, back dash and other post knockdown meta optimally enough to expand the meta. It's not a knock on anyone, but most people are playing below standard on key things that would evolve the meta. Blowing up pushblocks isn't used like it was in INJ1 nor using pushblock to really fuck up characters like Cheetah and others that need to get in to get their game started.

A lot of people also get defeated quickly instead of evolving on some match ups. People said Blue Beetle lost to Starfire not that long ago, which isn't true, but people get in their head how certain match ups and strategies go and it throws everything out of whack in terms of growth.

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

I feel like it's more to do with the game's early life than anything else. Yeah, the game might be fine now, but people lost interest after you had characters like Deadshot just be dominant for little work. So while things might be more interesting in the current build, people still have PTSD flashbacks to that nonsense and don't want to go back to the game.

And to Espio's point about the patches, I don't think the meta is all THAT different because of how they patched. The Top 5 now is still pretty much the Top 5 from 6 months ago. Firestorm aside, nobody really made a splash on the scene like Kolin just did in SFV. Going further with that, Firestorm hit that problem where a mid-tier character became the undisputed best with everyone playing a pocket Firestorm vs. that Kolin example where she went from low tier to upper-mid (viable) and didn't necessarily drown things out.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Now seriously... Chip damage for specials are way too much and chip kills ruin this game. not even Cold should be able to kill with a chip kill like FANG of SFV. But it is too late and like Hellblazer said.. Deadshot shooted this game to death. The game was doomed from day one... and stayed that way for more than a Year. enough time to kill a game.

 

[Zyphox]

Now seriously... Chip damage for specials are way too much and chip kills ruin this game. not even Cold should be able to kill with a chip kill like FANG of SFV. But it is too late and like Hellblazer said.. Deadshot shooted this game to death. The game was doomed from day one... and stayed that way for more than a Year. enough time to kill a game.

logged in real quick just to remind you that INJUSTICE 2 hasn't been out for a year yet.

 

[neveradestroyer]

logged in real quick just to remind you that INJUSTICE 2 hasn't been out for a year yet.

Well... It was that damn long with out patching Deadshot that it felt like an eternity. Remember that full Deadshot tournament?. That was the epitome of the Deadshot damage to the game. That's when They realized the damage that Deadshot did to the game. But it was too late. P.S. The flash is a cancer character too.

 

[Ram]

Well... It was that damn long with out patching Deadshot that it felt like an eternity. Remember that full Deadshot tournament?. That was the epitome of the Deadshot damage to the game. That's when They realized the damage that Deadshot did to the game. But it was too late.

Feels like finger-pointing to me...
"it was because of Deadshot", "it was because of patch frequency", etc...
At the end of the day, if you want to consider it stale, you can. If you don't want to consider it stale, you can do that too. What matters is if people are still playing and supporting the game. I really really enjoy this game, so I play it. I find that despite what I think a certain matchup is (in my favor, not in my favor, etc), I still have so much to learn and good players still beat me.

edit: don't mean to just reply to @neveradestroyer , im replying to OP and @Espio and others as well

 

[Skedar70]

I don't think its an issue with the game. The issue is that people have become such tier whores that I am always fighting against the character of the moment. Aquamans, Batmans, Supergirls now firestorms. I barely get to play against other characters. We never see other good characters either because people are always listening to who the top players say are the new top tiers in order to hop on the bandwagon and we get more of the same.

 

[PetulantWaste]

I don't think so. Firestorm was way too good for a little while. The only thing stale about this game is that Sonicfox wins every goddamn tournament so when I watch it I feel like I'm watching a battle for second place.

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

I don't think its an issue with the game. The issue is that people have become such tier whores that I am always fighting against the character of the moment. Aquamans, Batmans, Supergirls now firestorms. I barely get to play against other characters. We never see other good characters either because people are always listening to who the top players say are the new top tiers in order to hop on the bandwagon and we get more of the same.

Yeah, I kind of regretted not watching Clash 18 in full when I saw the Grand Finals was Swamp Thing vs. Red Hood. Like, when has anyone ever played Swamp Thing in tourney?

 

[Cursa]

Defensive meta itself is quite stale compared to offensive meta of MKX. IJ2 is probably the most defensive out of the 4 between MKX, MK9, IJ1 and IJ2, and it appeals to a newcomer/casual player a lot less. It's harder to appreciate the workings of a comeback with someone who isn't Flash or Bane since a newcomer literally has no idea about the decision making process, while Flash or Bane can literally just 50/50 you to death which is pretty easy to see based on how their HP bar drops, even if you don't know what 50/50's are.

On top of the fact that most newcomers play a fighting game to fight and expect it to just be an all out slug fest, which IJ2 is pretty far from in most games. It's hard to just go into a game and mash buttons and have a good chance of winning unless your opponent is also a button masher. It's not a newcomer friendly meta, which is fine, but the casual community is super important for a fighting game. Casuals end up becoming the new pro players, and improves the game's life.

Also Injustice isn't a household name that comes to mind when you think "Fighting games" so it's pretty easy to write it off. Everyone says what they will about MKX and the 50/50 game, but at the end of the day, it's hype to watch because you literally just watch people get the shit beaten out of them, which is relatable to a new player, and it's THE Mortal Kombat so it doesn't matter.

I don't really have an answer for why more mid-tier characters aren't played other than execution. Like Robin for example. Aside from Hayatei I've seen like 0 Robins, and it's not like he's even a bad character. Or hard, really. There was always talk that he was a secret top 10 character even, but there was just like 10 better (usually easier) characters most of the time. Same with characters like Harley, GL, GA etc.

I think we're heading into more of a character specialist "meta" where labbing your matchups will be incredibly important otherwise you're just going to get destroyed by things like Black Manta/Blue Beetle float staggers or Harley 50/50s. The rise of mid-tier-characters-that-no-one-labs-but-are-actually-good-now-that-top-tiers-aren't-insanely-overpowered.

Tldr; Easy execution for top tiers leads to common top 8 rosters, emphasis on neutral play (Can't just lab that), and more stale to watch (opinion but the most popular one with pretty good argument). If you stick around to learn to appreciate how games play out it's actually really interesting.

 

[Zur-En-Arrh]

I think it's not a matter of stale. Injustice 2 is a variated game, different characters use complete opposites strategies to Win. Compared to mkx where most of the top tiers could rush down, 50/50 and auto footsie u from anywhere on the screen and u have a really variated cast in I2.

But I2's problem for me is that even though the game technically is almost perfect (conservative patches, great netcode, balance etc) it's not as fun to watch as MKX or DBFZ for example (and are Far more unbalanced If not broken). I think NRS did a Lot If great things in I2 and that can and SHOULD keep them in MK XI, but for me, they need to balance the quality with fun (I know Its subjective tho, Its not a real argument). The perfect NRS game wil be the one that puts together the Variety and support of I2 with the aggressive and overwhelming gameplay and meta of MKX. Cause even DBFZ is frustating thanks to their mediocre netcode.

 

[Storm Zone]

Too many sheep in the NRS scene one person says the games dead/dull people assume it's actually dead/dull people can't come up with their own conclusions, personally i prefer MK games but can enjoy injustice for what it is, NRS players treat the game like Fifa/Madden drop it as soon as the next title drops even though Mk and Injustice are two titles of their own.

 

[Skedar70]

I don't think so. Firestorm was way too good for a little while. The only thing stale about this game is that Sonicfox wins every goddamn tournament so when I watch it I feel like I'm watching a battle for second place.

I think this is also a good point. You can't blame the fox for winning. What I actually think is an issue is that Inj2 didn't bring many new faces like mkx did so we almost always see the same guys in top places and its the same guys from the previous games. And all of these guys have conform with fighting for second. Its hype to root for the underdog but Inj 2 didn't provide much of that and the scene has become unwelcoming to new players (despite what people say).

 

[ChatterBox]

Speaking on the Clutch GF and the state of the meta: I think season 2 is when all the character specialists will come out of the woodwork and change some people's minds. In MK9 and IGAU era we had locals, where you could see the true character variety and watch these players/characters evolve. In MKX era we had a shiny new online component and the Yomi boys just doing whatever they wanted so people would play rando characters because only sonic could beat them anyway. In inj2 we just had the IPS which started very soon after the game came out (May 11 for Inj2, as opposed to April 7 MKX and April 16 IGAU and April 17 MK9) so people were financially encouraged to play the day 1 meta for several months instead of hunt for tech and grind matchups with their favorite characters.

Here's hoping season two shows us something else. I can't wait to see Beetles, Ivys, and Jokers who put in the work.

 

[neveradestroyer]

The 'once' highest possible level gameplay on Injustice 2.

Such an emotive fighting game!. OMG the reads.

 

[Skedar70]

The 'once' highest possible level gameplay on Injustice 2.

Such an emotive fighting game!. OMG the reads.

I honestly can' believe how people defend the Zoning play style. I don't care what anybody says. It does require less skill. All you need to do is learn the few projectile moves and keep the opponent away. No need for combos, set ups or anything else needed.

 

[Marinjuana]

I honestly can' believe how people defend the Zoning play style. I don't care what anybody says. It does require less skill. All you need to do is learn the few projectile moves and keep the opponent away. No need for combos, set ups or anything else needed.

Because not every zoner is as braindead as Deadshot was. When people optimize their movement, it gets tough to keep people out. Playing a zoner is zoning at one point and then dealing with your usually mediocre up close game when it comes to it. Sure, it doesn't take as much labbing usually and even maybe skill compared to many characters, but whats more difficult? Zoning a good player out or landing a 50/50?

 

[Storm Zone]

I think this is also a good point. You can't blame the fox for winning. What I actually think is an issue is that Inj2 didn't bring many new faces like mkx did so we almost always see the same guys in top places and its the same guys from the previous games. And all of these guys have conform with fighting for second. Its hype to root for the underdog but Inj 2 didn't provide much of that and the scene has become unwelcoming to new players (despite what people say).

Because not every zoner is as braindead as Deadshot was. When people optimize their movement, it gets tough to keep people out. Playing a zoner is zoning at one point and then dealing with your usually mediocre up close game when it comes to it. Sure, it doesn't take as much labbing usually and even maybe skill compared to many characters, but whats more difficult? Zoning a good player out or landing a 50/50?

only form of zoning that shouldn't exist imo is auto tracking that shits just braindead

 

[Gooberking]

Because not every zoner is as braindead as Deadshot was. When people optimize their movement, it gets tough to keep people out. Playing a zoner is zoning at one point and then dealing with your usually mediocre up close game when it comes to it. Sure, it doesn't take as much labbing usually and even maybe skill compared to many characters, but whats more difficult? Zoning a good player out or landing a 50/50?

I do think there is something of a skill curve imbalance going on in regards to zoning. Zoning is something that becomes more fair as you climb the skill ladder. At low levels it takes far less skill to create a zoning problem than it takes to overcome it, and that's not super enjoyable in the low to mid level.

Most people don't have time or interest in really understanding how a game works. They just want to pretend to be Batman for 10-20 hours and see some supers. You end up with a couple of equally clueless casuals where one is destroying the other. That second guy ends up hating the game and maybe his dick friend. In the same situation with a game where every character can 50/50, these same two people could end up trading wins and having a good time. Maybe one of them enjoys it enough to keep playing and dig deeper. It's just a hypothetical, so maybe that doesn't happen.

I'm a little curious what "stale meta" means. Is it about not evolving the play of the game, or about waning interest in the game as a whole? Seems like general disinterest is more of the talking point.

I can't really speak to deep game meta, but I'm not entirely sure IJ2 ever had the same appeal that MKX had. I've enjoyed playing it over the past year, but I don't think it's as fun to play as some fighers, it's far less interesting to spectate, and it positioned itself in a way that made it personally hard to really connect to or keep up with. By that last point I mean fracturing the player base into casual and and non-causal camps and by being more game than I could keep up with.

I play a lot, but am not really someone that can compete with serious players. On the other hand I don't want to play so casually that I was willing to accept the RPG elements of active gear. I feel like I don't really belong in a group within the game. And as someone that can't really get their head around dealing with 36 or whatever characters, the last game was more digestible personally. There are a lot of fighters with more going on than MKX had, so that's probably not a great point as to any reason IJ2 might struggle with long term relevance.

IJ2 is a good game, but I don't know that it has anything that really makes it cool for someone that isn't a player. There isn't anything hype about it, and I think the only reason I enjoy watching it is because I understand it well enough to appreciate what is happening. KI, MKX, DBFZ don't/didn't require you to know anything. Make someone's head explode in MK and you have people's attention.

 

[Cursa]

Zoning's fine really. Dr Fate is still the best and still strong but I think that has more to do with how good F2, B2 and DB2 are as normals.

 

[Cursa]

Also to tldr this entire thread basically - Broken rushdown gameplay is more exciting to watch than pretty balanced neutral based gameplay.

Also, I don't think you can call a game truly stale and be factually correct at the same time. Stale suggests boring,which is an opinion. I prefer playing IJ2 over MKX personally

Edit - Fixed, more exciting, not less

 

[kcd117]

I get they are trying to let the game develop before patching but I'll never understand some balance decisions.
Like supergirl getting overbuffed for no reason when the game came out and grodd getting no buffs, or firestorm getting buffed just bc "he wasn't seen that often" and meanwhile we have Raiden who is pretty much not in the game but no one cares. Then we have beetle getting a dmg buff and cold getting rekt by every patch so far.

I know that injustice 2 NRS' most balanced game so far, but idk, I had more fun playing a game that had over 10 broken characters than I have playing a game that has a super solid well rounded dominant top 5, usable top 10 and a bunch of cripples characters after that. I like the fact that they are letting the game mature before changing stuff, what I don't like is having characters being bottom 5 since launch while receiving little to no changes (some even nerfs lol).

 

[dribirut]

I think it’s jusd the emphasis on nerfing instead of buffing..

 

[Cursa]

I think future patches are going to have more buffs than nerfs. I don't think anyone needs anymore nerfs personally