Why is Injustice 2 the best NRS fighting game? Podcast discussion.

[M2Dave]

Hello again, my fellow zoning masters, rush down zealots, and footsies connoisseurs. Big D and Zyphox join me and REO to discuss Big D's big performance at EVO, Poison Ivy, the quality of Injustice 2 and its future, and much more. We hope you listen and provide abundant feedback just like the last time.

The topics include but are not limited to the following.

0:06 - How was Big D's and Zyphox's experience at EVO?
16:28 - Where does Poison Ivy stand on the tier list?
23:56 - Why do people hate Tweedy?
30:01 - With no announcement at EVO from NRS, where does Injustice 2 go from here?
39:58 - Why is Injustice 2 the best NRS fighting game?

We also ask for your help on a project that we have been working on. This tier list is a rough draft of what appears to be the final version of Injustice 2. Any constructive argument, feedback, or opinion is welcome and may be accredited in the subsequent podcast, which will publish the finalized version of the tier list.

Spoiler

– Top Tier –
Atom, Batman, Black Adam, Black Manta, Blue Beetle, Catwoman, Dr. Fate, Firestorm, Hellboy, Starfire

– High Tier –

Atrocitus, Bane, Brainiac, Gorilla Grodd, Green Arrow, Leonardo, Michelangelo, Red Hood, Robin, Sub Zero, Superman, The Flash, Wonder Woman

– Mid Tier –
Aquaman, Black Canary, Captain Cold, Cheetah, Cyborg, Darkseid, Enchantress, Green Lantern, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Raiden, Scarecrow, Supergirl, Swamp Thing, The Joker

– Low Tier –
Deadshot, Donatello, Raphael

 

[Second Saint]

They touch on thinking that NRS will try and make MK 11 the biggest E-sports game they've done, but I'm not sure if they can realistically do that. The inherent over the top violence in MK X made it very hard to find sponsors, and if they tried to tone that down to ad-friendly levels, it would be betraying the very thing the fan base loves.

I also never really thought about how much the game's mechanics inherently favor being defensive in the way you all bring up in the podcast. That was an interesting talking point.

 

[GLoRToR]

Tear lists again lol

 

[Nulak]

Center your game design only around E-sport is the worst idea and business plan ever.

If people want compete on MK11 they will, and if there lot's of viewers for something, gore or not, cleavage or not, sponsor will suck you dick to promote their vaping stuff/ arcade stick/ biohazard energy drink/ blabla...

Make a great game, think about E-sport later.

Also MVCI, SFV and overwatch...

 

[kcd117]

Injustice 2 is such a weird game to make a tier list honestly...

It is like, you have your meta characters, think for example Fate and Starfire, and they have some very lopsided matchups and all that stuff but then you have a character like Atom who beats both of them pretty easily bc he is fundamentaly good at keeping them from doing the stuff they are good at, and then you have characters like brainiac who gets absolutely deleted by starfire but beats atom, but gets beat by darkseid, a chatacter that is demolished by flash, a "f... the meta I can kill you in one touch and one 50/50" character, that struggles against Cold, who loses to Arrow, that loses to Aqua, that loses to Ivy, who loses to beetle...

You can't really rate how good a character is based on anything in this game if you think about it, tools, matchups, learning curve...

And then you put stages in the equation, it becomes even more unique, for example playing the Batman-Brainiac matchup in Atlantis and playing the same matchup in Brainiacs ship...

Sometimes in this game you will struggle less playing 2 mid tier characters than playing the entire top 5.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Injustice 2 is such a weird game to make a tier list honestly...

It is like, you have your meta characters, think for example Fate and Starfire, and they have some very lopsided matchups and all that stuff but then you have a character like Atom who beats both of them pretty easily bc he is fundamentaly good at keeping them from doing the stuff they are good at, and then you have characters like brainiac who gets absolutely deleted by starfire but beats atom, but gets beat by darkseid, a chatacter that is demolished by flash, a "f... the meta I can kill you in one touch and one 50/50" character, that struggles against Cold, who loses to Arrow, that loses to Aqua, that loses to Ivy, who loses to beetle...

You can't really rate how good a character is based on anything in this game if you think about it, tools, matchups, learning curve...

And then you put stages in the equation, it becomes even more unique, for example playing the Batman-Brainiac matchup in Atlantis and playing the same matchup in Brainiacs ship...

Sometimes in this game you will struggle less playing 2 mid tier characters than playing the entire top 5.

whats the difference in the batman v brainiac matchup between atlantis and brainiac's ship? i don't really pay too much attention to which stage benefits who unless its super obvious.


also, why is supergirl mid tier? she should be up in high tier, same thing as scarecrow.

 

[Matix218]

Is there an mp3 download for this?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

People ‘hate Tweedy’ because he made/makes himself a heel, but that was all part of the plan. He’s good at riling people up it and it keeps people talking about him.

Deep down Tweedy is actually a good guy, and people who interact with him 1 on 1 will figure that out.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Also MVCI, SFV and overwatch...

Help me with the comparisons here..

MVCI — Mostly failed attempt at capitalizing on a classic franchise
SFV — Moderately successful (although controversial) game and esports title
Overwatch — The most successful team shooter of all time, game of the year, one of the fastest-selling titles ever, and a hugely successful esport

 

[Wigy]

Hot take- a lot of competitive players just religiously love the game as the new zoning meta has allowed them to compete against players that used to bop them and the zoning mindlessness of injustice is just as bad if not worse than the rushdown of mkx. Mkx was a hell of a lot more entertaining though. MK9 is the best despite all the bugs and in-balance.

 

[Ram]

Hot take- a lot of competitive players just religiously love the game as the new zoning meta has allowed them to compete against players that used to bop them and the zoning mindlessness of injustice is just as bad if not worse than the rushdown of mkx. Mkx was a hell of a lot more entertaining though. MK9 is the best despite all the bugs and in-balance.

Can you give some examples that support your hot take? Just curious.

 

[Braindead]

Hot take- a lot of competitive players just religiously love the game as the new zoning meta has allowed them to compete against players that used to bop them and the zoning mindlessness of injustice is just as bad if not worse than the rushdown of mkx.

Bad take.

A lot of the players who did well in MKX are still doing well in Inj2. It's not like mindless MKX rushdown players took a seat and a new zoning group of players took over.

Mkx was a hell of a lot more entertaining though.

Subjective take.

MK9 is the best despite all the bugs and in-balance.

Good take.

 

[Wigy]

Bad take.

A lot of the players who did well in MKX are still doing well in Inj2. It's not like mindless MKX rushdown players took a seat and a new zoning group of players took over.


Subjective take.


Good take.

Fair play. Just my take.

 

[Wigy]

Can you give some examples that support your hot take? Just curious.

Just all the new up and comers who play zoning characters who make out that boon sold his soul to make the shining spectale that is injustice.

Not guna call out people, I don't really know why people like it and shouldn't really profess to, but I'm just guna say it and then cover my ass with 'lol just my hot take tho'

I think the game gets a big pass on the characters being so fucked with skill vs output because it's very balanced.

I would prefer a lot of top tier hard characters like mk9 than what we have where you can have half the top ten pocketed in a week -hyperbole before someone takes me literally here.

 

[kcd117]

whats the difference in the batman v brainiac matchup between atlantis and brainiac's ship? i don't really pay too much attention to which stage benefits who unless its super obvious.


also, why is supergirl mid tier? she should be up in high tier, same thing as scarecrow.

Atlantis has dive kick in one corner and unlimited leap in the other, you can basically never corner a good player there, matchup easily becomes a 8-2. In brainiac's ship on the other hand, you have no corner escapes and and the best bgb in the game, it is a 5-5 only on that stage.

 

[kcd117]

Just all the new up and comers who play zoning characters who make out that boon sold his soul to make the shining spectale that is injustice.

Not guna call out people, I don't really know why people like it and shouldn't really profess to, but I'm just guna say it and then cover my ass with 'lol just my hot take tho'

I think the game gets a big pass on the characters being so fucked with skill vs output because it's very balanced.

I would prefer a lot of top tier hard characters like mk9 than what we have where you can have half the top ten pocketed in a week -hyperbole before someone takes me literally here.

To be fair everytime someone grinds and starts to do good in a new game with a meta characters people get bitter and say it is due to the game benefiting their playstile and that they would never be good in X game and all that bullshit. It is about time we drop that.

It is all about preference, I never enjoyed getting corner raped against the entire cast in mkx, I didn't enjoy playing against cyrax in mk9, and I enjoy even less playig against the flash in this game, I would take a 10 hours straight against a mkx pyro, mk9 kenshi, fate and starfire over 1 hour against a flash player or sonya...

Imo it is really sad when people bash the game bc they like one playstyle better than the other. If it is not for your taste, just don't play/watch it, and don't start trying to find reasons for why the game is bad bc it is not the game's fault.

If you are a casual you should just play what you find fun, if you are a pro player you should just play a game you feel you are good at. And if you just love NRS games you will play them regardless. It is that simple.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Atlantis has dive kick in one corner and unlimited leap in the other, you can basically never corner a good player there, matchup easily becomes a 8-2. In brainiac's ship on the other hand, you have no corner escapes and and the best bgb in the game, it is a 5-5 only on that stage.

the matchup becomes a 8-2 for batman? as in he wins 8-2? doesnt batman usually beat brainiac?

 

[kcd117]

the matchup becomes a 8-2 for batman? as in he wins 8-2? doesnt batman usually beat brainiac?

Yeah, it is 6-4 batman. But if he gets atlantis he turns a favorable matchup into a even more extremely favorable one. If it goes to Brain's ship on the other hand, he has to deal with high dmg 50/50s everywhere in the screen and no corner escapes to get out of the jail so it becomes even.

Brain is kinda ridiculous in his ship.

 

[Invincible Salads]

ah, nice ill have to remember that, i have a pretty good brainiac.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Great podcast. seriously

 

[Nulak]

Help me with the comparisons here..

MVCI — Mostly failed attempt at capitalizing on a classic franchise
SFV — Moderately successful (although controversial) game and esports title
Overwatch — The most successful team shooter of all time, game of the year, one of the fastest-selling titles ever, and a hugely successful esport

You did answer you own question.

2 commercials fail and 1 game that fail to really succeed in Esport.

Overwatch is a bad esport game, boring to watch without competition kept alive by his creator with millions of $ dumped in the garbage by a company that have millions $ to waste.

So, you get the idea 3 differents games, with one goal = Esport.
All 3 have something in common, they failed horribly at something (business wise or Esport wise), damaged the brand or wasting millions of $ for nothing. (And only Blizzard can offer it)


Also "over-balanced" game are the new plague of this gaming era. Another thing Blizzard can't do. Balance their game, they proved that for a very long time now, so they should really stay away from "E-sport"...

 

[M2Dave]

Is there an mp3 download for this?

Not at the moment.

Hot take- a lot of competitive players just religiously love the game as the new zoning meta has allowed them to compete against players that used to bop them and the zoning mindlessness of injustice is just as bad if not worse than the rushdown of mkx. Mkx was a hell of a lot more entertaining though.

The reality is that the community's top players can win with zoning or rush down. The players who were winning at the end of Mortal Kombat X's lifespan are the same players who have been winning in Injustice 2. There are no "frauds" in either game. Some of the top players may gravitate toward a certain gameplay style, but they are sufficiently talented to play any character at a high level and adapt to any meta.

 

[Marinjuana]

Really cool podcast, I liked how you guys touched on the idea of the next NRS game not being a fighter. Certainly makes sense that the next game would be a fighter but we don't know that, it could be years until we get a new NRS fighter. We just don't know.

That youtube comment section is trash though.

Atlantis has dive kick in one corner and unlimited leap in the other, you can basically never corner a good player there, matchup easily becomes a 8-2. In brainiac's ship on the other hand, you have no corner escapes and and the best bgb in the game, it is a 5-5 only on that stage.

I agree with all of your points in this thread except for it being 5-5 Brainiac vs Batman on the ship. I think Brainiac is absolutely a character where stage can make a big difference, but I don't think BGB and lack of corner escapes makes up for Batman dominating Brainiac at long range. Plus, Batman gets some work with the interactables too and if you end up in the other arena those interactables work in Batman's favor as well. But I view the matchup as being worse then some other seem to think. To me, if Batman plays it right, Brainiac has to rely on offensive momentum after walking Batman to the corner and this is a game where there's a lot of good defensive options to get out of trouble.

I mostly made this post as an excuse to bitch about the Brainiac vs Batman MU

 

[Invincible Salads]

yknow, i like how people are all like "MAYBEEEE ITS NOT EVEN MK11 GUISE "



LBSH, its gonna be mk11, lol

 

[Jeremy KO]

Mute the game audio if you're gonna plan a podcast ahead.