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Match-Up Discussion - Balanced Why is Balanced still so bad?

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
I didn't get that patch yet
My bad, the post after yours says all the characters that don't have full screen throws. And as for the frame data the tools that should be used are ex tele pushed, b1, especially b1 and holy shit b1 it is a very powerful tool, it is hitconfirmable allows you play footsies very effectively and also rising karma is a godlike anti air for the ranges it is good at, aka not cross ups. Basically it is really good fit people trying to avoid tele push by jumping it, and not a lot of Characters can punish telepush au Max range, especially mid Match when it counts.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Well, there is always room for debate. I have to say that, with very few exceptions, I pretty much agree with Pig's matchup chart after all this time playing Balanced.

Mileena, Cassie, Bo Rai Cho, first throws that come to my mind, that leave the opponent mid-close range. Kenshi's throw is actually something well done in his design.
After playing a lot of balanved and pasting chefs balanced a lot, I disagree with his match up chart personally. I am not trying to discredit him. I know he believes those numbers and for good reason, I just think people are focusing too much on getting to make him a successful zoner when that isn't what he excels at.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
My bad, the post after yours says all the characters that don't have full screen throws. And as for the frame data the tools that should be used are ex tele pushed, b1, especially b1 and holy shit b1 it is a very powerful tool, it is hitconfirmable allows you play footsies very effectively and also rising karma is a godlike anti air for the ranges it is good at, aka not cross ups. Basically it is really good fit people trying to avoid tele push by jumping it, and not a lot of Characters can punish telepush au Max range, especially mid Match when it counts.
But BF2 sends you full screen and the only reason it's halfscreen is because it's a mid. They gave him an option for people that are trying to duck BF3 and something that isn't reactable like DB4. It has pushback even and the Ex version has even more pushback. Rising Karma is an anti air incase people jump over BF2 cuz it's a mid and it's used to armor to, yet again, send you full screen off a full combo
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
But BF2 sends you full screen and the only reason it's halfscreen is because it's a mid. They gave him an option for people that are trying to duck BF3 and something that isn't reactable like DB4. It has pushback even and the Ex version has even more pushback. Rising Karma is an anti air incase people jump over BF2 cuz it's a mid and it's used to armor to, yet again, send you full screen off a full combo
Just because it sends the opponent full screen does not mean he excels there, it may have been guys original purpose but it is clear that he doesn't excel there, not to mention mid screen you can start using telefury again since people will be too afraid to duck it at that point because of telepush, not to mention doubles as an anti air if they try and jump telepush, at that point it has to be the hardest of reads to get in, and teleslice can be used to fake the opponent out at that point. Basically at mid screen you can use all of your tools as balanced effectively and every tool has a purpose. At mid screen kenshis mind games improve 10 fold
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Just because it sends the opponent full screen does not mean he excels there, it may have been guys original purpose but it is clear that he doesn't excel there, not to mention mid screen you can start using telefury again since people will be too afraid to duck it at that point because of telepush, not to mention doubles as an anti air if they try and jump telepush, at that point it has to be the hardest of reads to get in, and teleslice can be used to fake the opponent out at that point. Basically at mid screen you can use all of your tools as balanced effectively and every tool has a purpose. At mid screen kenshis mind games improve 10 fold
Meanwhile I can just use Possessed to control that mid screen just as well and gain access to actual offense.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Meanwhile I can just use Possessed to control that mid screen just as well and gain access to actual offense.
You don't get as many options mid screen as well as not as many ways to convert meterless. It is picking and choosing, balanced needs meter AND doesn't have to spend it on combos, possessed needs meter for the same reason and also needs it for combos. They are both good.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
You don't get as many options mid screen as well as not as many ways to convert meterless. It is picking and choosing, balanced needs meter AND doesn't have to spend it on combos, possessed needs meter for the same reason and also needs it for combos. They are both good.
The pay off is that Possessed can actually play MKX to an extent, it also has much better meter build up close.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
The pay off is that Possessed can actually play MKX to an extent, it also has much better meter build up close.
Also true, balanced can play mkx up close as well but not as well as possessed. Balanced has less options up close and possessed has less options from mid screen, as I said, both very solid for veer different reasons. Balanced rewards those that can play footsies and can space their attacks well. Which I feel it's a very downplayed powerful aspect of MKX. Playing defense can be just as effective if not more effective than offense in this game, it is just harder to do so it is over looked.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
It's not that it's harder to do, it's that it isn't even worth it. There are other characters with defense just as good or even better that also have actual offense, best case in point is butter face.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
It's not that it's harder to do, it's that it isn't even worth it. There are other characters with defense just as good or even better that also have actual offense, best case in point is butter face.
It's only not worth it for certain characters, for characters like liu kang. Who are purely offensive, just because someone does have both offense and defense doesn't mean that offense is automatically better it is just another way of playing a character. Being defensive is the most unexplored part of MK just because it is easier to find tech and talk about offense than defense, since defense is all about patients and mind games etc. We also don't have many defensive tools to talk about. A lot of MK defense is flipping offensive tools on their head and understanding your opponent. Not as easy to talk about but can be extremely effective. Due to the lack of exploration of defensive play it is downplayed, and due to that I believe that the meta of MKX hasn't been fully explored.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
It's only not worth it for certain characters, for characters like liu kang. Who are purely offensive, just because someone does have both offense and defense doesn't mean that offense is automatically better it is just another way of playing a character. Being defensive is the most unexplored part of MK just because it is easier to find tech and talk about offense than defense, since defense is all about patients and mind games etc. We also don't have many defensive tools to talk about. A lot of MK defense is flipping offensive tools on their head and understanding your opponent. Not as easy to talk about but can be extremely effective. Due to the lack of exploration of defensive play it is downplayed, and due to that I believe that the meta of MKX hasn't been fully explored.
Defense and keepaway are in general high risk-low reward tactics just because how easy is to get in in this game (mainly because run button exists, and run is very fast) and how much advantage you can take when you are in if you are a rushdown character (potential jailing pressure, 50/50, vortexes, etc...)

A character like Balanced feels like playing with a wooden stick vs guys with ak 47s. You can win but you have to read the opponent's mind too many times, force him to make too many mistakes compared with the few ones the opponent needs you to make.

His frames in his spacing tools (push, teleflurry, overhead slash) suck at many levels, they have been touched super slightly through the patches as if they were afraid of making him too powerful, when there's actually a lot of room to improve him without even making him top tier.

Also, many characters with great rushdown also have footsies and advancing mids that laugh at Balanced footsie options, so he doesn't shine at footsies either at all.

Defense is explored. It's just too bad compared with offense.
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Kenshi had the most autowin matchups in the previous game so it was time for him to be bottom tier. You could literally win entire games by doing 3 different special moves.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Kenshi had the most autowin matchups in the previous game so it was time for him to be bottom tier. You could literally win entire games by doing 3 different special moves.
That logic hurts my brain lol. "You're good in this game so be useless in the next. Punish the community for our design, arrgghh."
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Defense and keepaway are in general high risk-low reward tactics just because how easy is to get in in this game (mainly because run button exists, and run is very fast) and how much advantage you can take when you are in if you are a rushdown character (potential jailing pressure, 50/50, vortexes, etc...)

A character like Balanced feels like playing with a wooden stick vs guys with ak 47s. You can win but you have to read the opponent's mind too many times, force him to make too many mistakes compared with the few ones the opponent needs you to make.

His frames in his spacing tools (push, teleflurry, overhead slash) suck at many levels, they have been touched super slightly through the patches as if they were afraid of making him too powerful, when there's actually a lot of room to improve him without even making him top tier.

Also, many characters with great rushdown also have footsies and advancing mids that laugh at Balanced footsie options, so he doesn't shine at footsies either at all.

Defense is explored. It's just too bad compared with offense.
I'll respond to this with my full arguments on why I disagree after I get back from work. Feel free to notify me in about 8 hours in case i forget because I really would like to present my arguments
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I can describe why Balanced is bad, He is built for Zoining, but his Zoning tools are very well put together but have mad recovery and Wiff recovery. so it kinda sucks. he has everything you would want, an Overhead Slash, a fullscreen High Projectile, and a half screen Mid Projectile, the pronblem is all of these tools are to heavy on Recovery and to negative on block. it makes any Rushdown character able to full combo punish onone wrong throw.

His Moves or Normals are bbuilt to keep them out and lauch them back to a long ranged battle, this is very good for kenshi, his F4, D4, B1, B2, F211 are great long range tools, and help that strategy, the problem is they are fucking slow. D4 is 13 frames on startup OMG when Scorpion can D4 metwice before mine would come out. thats what he is generally up against in the footsie department. Then he has a decent D1 but the rest suck, and since his only good Mid 3, is 11 frames and only reaches as far as he can reach with his Dick, he has a problem with Neutral. so When he fails at Keeping them out, which he will, then he fails up close, then his only option is EX Rising Karma which is a great move, but certain players who are anti Laucnhing armors said it would be to op to have a safe laucnhing armor, like he isn't paying a bar to make it safe and use it when he ha sno other options only to be punished on block and locked in corner for spending a bar, when other characters get safe as fuck Laucnhing armors. not many but some have it. like ones with MAd Pushback.


He's not that bad. He has potential but unless he's op broken tier no NRS player wants to play him apparently.


His main problem is probably the whiff recovery on bf3 if you fix that he'd be good.
Trust me he is not that great, he has it all there, he could be very well the best Zoner in the game, but because he is so punishable on Wiff and Block he loses to all. Up close he has no neutral, and Far away he is full screen punished or forced to guess a 50/50 and with some characters that is guess a 50/50, into another 50/50, into another 50/50 or a Throw.

Yes you can win if the opponent does not do something right, but they get a hell of alot more chances to win than Kenshi does. there openingas are like 3 times in a mcth, Kenshi's opertunities to get punished even when using him the best possible is more than tripple that. because his frame are so shit and he has Garbage Neutral.

What balanced needs fixed, is Recovery on Overhead slash/Teleflurry then more pushback on Rising Karma while trapped in Corner, then his D4 needs to be at least 8 frames startup when its currently at 13. think about it, he needs that stagger to get them out, Kenshi does not want to Poke them and then go Damn well nothing is fast enough to beat them close up, wish my D4 was faster, he want sD4 to push them back so he can use F4 or F211 or Push them out with BF2.

  • If his D4 was 8 frame startup
  • Teleflurry was less recovery and more positive on hit like 20 like eveyr other special in the game not plus 2 or 1
  • Overhead slash should garantee on hit a BF3 attempt. and should not be full screen punishable. at least make them only get to half screen for gos sakes. it doesnt have to be that easy to get in.

  • and RISING KARMA needs to have a bigger hitbox that stuffs Crossovers and jump ins better, or startup faster, and i wouldn't mind it pushing them back farther on block, so i don't get full combo punished for me making the right read and it wiff on second hit. its bullshit that i connects then have to guess 50/50!

he would be great.
 
For all the newcomers that didnt play mk9, Balanced is just fine. He was MAD brainded back in mk9. None wants that again.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
For all the newcomers that didnt play mk9, Balanced is just fine. He was MAD brainded back in mk9. None wants that again.
Nooooooo, Bullshit, What fucking game where you playing, Kabal was braindead, Sonya Was braindead, Jax Armor was braindead. But Kenshi in MK9 was not, how about Liu Kang wah wah wah...wah wah wah... wah wah wah. that was braindead, or Johnny's kicks of furry all day long?
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
and i think zoning if there is ways to get in is not op, and should be an option, TYM is funny, your aginst zoning being good but then bitch when its not good enough or at least thats the consensus.