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Match-Up Discussion - Balanced Why is Balanced still so bad?

MK2D

Have you had your MK today?
I mean, with a variation called "Balanced" you'd think it'd be, well, balanced by now. This is assuming there's truly nothing left to discover.

Is NRS trolling or just not giving Kenshi the requisite amount of TLC he should have?
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
Well you're pretty late to the party. There've been a lot of threads about Balanced being bad. General idea is: "We don't know why Balanced is bad, but we don't like it."
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I mean, with a variation called "Balanced" you'd think it'd be, well, balanced by now. This is assuming there's truly nothing left to discover.
There is not.

Is NRS trolling or just not giving Kenshi the requisite amount of TLC he should have?
They are trolling unless they prove otherwise in this upcoming patch. There is no possible way to do such a bad job unless it's on purpose.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
To simplify why Balanced is bad, his design is STRICTLY zoning. This game is not strong in that department. Honestly there's characters that do it better and also have the ability to play offensively as well such as Quan or HQT Pred
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
After much deliberation and talk with @EGP Wonder_Chef I've come to the conclusion that he isn't horrible. He is a footsies character and is a really solid secondary character to cover your characters bad match ups depending on your character, but he isn't a good main character. He has some damn good buttons, some of the best AA's in the game and some solid as fuck meterless damage. His mix up is non existent. You can't rely on his zoning, etc. He thrives at mid screen. I know I've said many times that balanced is dogshit, but I take it back. He is definitely not main material, but he is definitely a solid choice for a secondary character. Also his staggers are insanely useful. Maybe not as useful or good as Mileenas but still good.
 
After much deliberation and talk with @EGP Wonder_Chef I've come to the conclusion that he isn't horrible. He is a footsies character and is a really solid secondary character to cover your characters bad match ups depending on your character, but he isn't a good main character. He has some damn good buttons, some of the best AA's in the game and some solid as fuck meterless damage. His mix up is non existent. You can't rely on his zoning, etc. He thrives at mid screen. I know I've said many times that balanced is dogshit, but I take it back. He is definitely not main material, but he is definitely a solid choice for a secondary character. Also his staggers are insanely useful. Maybe not as useful or good as Mileenas but still good.
Careful there you are going to be shunned by your own community
 

Fellow_Swordsman

"One mind, one blade."
After much deliberation and talk with @EGP Wonder_Chef I've come to the conclusion that he isn't horrible. He is a footsies character and is a really solid secondary character to cover your characters bad match ups depending on your character, but he isn't a good main character. He has some damn good buttons, some of the best AA's in the game and some solid as fuck meterless damage. His mix up is non existent. You can't rely on his zoning, etc. He thrives at mid screen. I know I've said many times that balanced is dogshit, but I take it back. He is definitely not main material, but he is definitely a solid choice for a secondary character. Also his staggers are insanely useful. Maybe not as useful or good as Mileenas but still good.
I agree to some extent. I believe Balanced isn't a strict zoning variation. I would say it's more along the lines of a spacing type variation that can also zone. Albeit, it's not that good in my opinion. I almost feel as if Possessed does just as good of a job keeping people out with push and far demon drops.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Careful there you are going to be shunned by your own community
Yeah kenshi community has been dead for a while anyways, they all either moved to a different game or are bitching endlessly. Or on very rare occasion actually agree with me, but that isn't very common. Don't really care what they think of me
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
I agree to some extent. I believe Balanced isn't a strict zoning variation. I would say it's more along the lines of a spacing type variation that can also zone. Albeit, it's not that good in my opinion. I almost feel as if Possessed does just as good of a job keeping people out with push and far demon drops.
What hurts possessed zoning though is BF3 tracking
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
I agree to some extent. I believe Balanced isn't a strict zoning variation. I would say it's more along the lines of a spacing type variation that can also zone. Albeit, it's not that good in my opinion. I almost feel as if Possessed does just as good of a job keeping people out with push and far demon drops.
Possessed and balanced are equally good IMO for different reasons. Telefury is honestly insanely good as a full screen anti air, and balanced has more ways to convert for damage without meter and has some reason sold mid screen play, while possessed is better for keeping the opponent at full screen and has some really solid burst rush down. But has terrible getting back out when he is done. I think they both excel and have weaknesses in different areas for different reasons.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Also I'm not sure how Balanced ISNT strictly a zoning variation lol. His throw sends you, full screen, BF3 sends you full screen, BF2 sends you full screen, DB1 anti airs you into a full combo that sends you full screen, DB4 should have more hit advanatage and the EX version does...guess what? Sends you full screen lol. Literally balanced isn't meant to be close at all. He doesn't have any pressure tools or mixups. Idk what else I can list. He's a zoner. Period.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
Also I'm not sure how Balanced ISNT strictly a zoning variation lol. His throw sends you, full screen, BF3 sends you full screen, BF2 sends you full screen, DB1 anti airs you into a full combo that sends you full screen, DB4 should have more hit advanatage and the EX version does...guess what? Sends you full screen lol. Literally balanced isn't meant to be close at all. He doesn't have any pressure tools or mixups. Idk what else I can list. He's a zoner. Period.
It may send you full screen but that isn't where he excels at, his range, his utility, his everything, all point to him being a footsies based character. His tools don't allow him to keep you full screen. But they do allow you to keep them at bay at mid screen. With focuses on whiff punishing and abs walking in and out of the opponents range with his actually really solid walk speed
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
After much deliberation and talk with @EGP Wonder_Chef I've come to the conclusion that he isn't horrible. He is a footsies character and is a really solid secondary character to cover your characters bad match ups depending on your character, but he isn't a good main character. He has some damn good buttons, some of the best AA's in the game and some solid as fuck meterless damage. His mix up is non existent. You can't rely on his zoning, etc. He thrives at mid screen. I know I've said many times that balanced is dogshit, but I take it back. He is definitely not main material, but he is definitely a solid choice for a secondary character. Also his staggers are insanely useful. Maybe not as useful or good as Mileenas but still good.
The thing is, tiers are not decided by "this character might have potential to be a secondary". They are decided by looking at that character vs all the others in the game.

Of course Balanced can be a good secondary (for example I started using him for the gm sub matchup), but that doesn't mean it's not a variation with around 4-5 good/even matchups in a game with +90 matchups.
Actually, he can only be a good secondary in those 4-5 matchups lol, and he doesn't win any of them very comfortably.

Also everyone's throw sends the opponent full screen
That's not true, man.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
The thing is, tiers are not decided by "this character might have potential to be a secondary". They are decided by looking at that character vs all the others in the game.

Of course Balanced can be a good secondary (for example I started using him for the gm sub matchup), but that doesn't mean it's not a variation with around 4-5 good/even matchups in a game with +90 matchups.
Actually, he can only be a good secondary in those 4-5 matchups lol, and he doesn't win any of them very comfortably.



That's not true, man.
I think you are under estimating him on Match ups, he may do better in more Match ups than you think, also I'll go ahead and test that really quick, every character I've played sends the opponent full screen when thrown
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I think you are under estimating him on Match ups, he may do better in more Match ups than you think, also I'll go ahead and test that really quick, every character I've played sends the opponent full screen when thrown
Well, there is always room for debate. I have to say that, with very few exceptions, I pretty much agree with Pig's matchup chart after all this time playing Balanced.

Mileena, Cassie, Bo Rai Cho, first throws that come to my mind, that leave the opponent mid-close range. Kenshi's throw is actually something well done in his design.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
It may send you full screen but that isn't where he excels at, his range, his utility, his everything, all point to him being a footsies based character. His tools don't allow him to keep you full screen. But they do allow you to keep them at bay at mid screen. With focuses on whiff punishing and abs walking in and out of the opponents range with his actually really solid walk speed
His tools don't allow to keep you at range because they need to change frame data. A character wouldn't send you full screen off everything if they weren't a zoned lol that makes no sense. "Lemme send you full screen so you can move back in to play footsies." The only thing that really points to footsies is B1