Match-Up Discussion - Erron Black Why Erron Black Fails and Bleeds with a nerf

[iLLmAtiCx]

Why Erron Black Fails and Bleeds with a nerf.

Erron Black v.s The Black Dragon (Test Your Might)



I will be demonstrating here why (Commando) Kano is the true grappler character and how the nerfs implemented March 1st will make Kano a much more viable choice than Erron Black. Further than that Kano is a very viable choice for countering Erron. I am a Day One Erron main so I am very familiar with the character, I soon learned however of the overrated nature of the character while finding holes EVERYWHERE. I will demonstrate below why Kano makes an excellent choice for the kounters.


- Forward 1 3 pressure can be broken easily, simply wait for the EX Sand Grenade and punish.


- 21122 Pressure is easily avoided and grants an option for jump in. With the coming nerf Erron will be missing several tick throws. Although I have caught many people with this throw it was only within the element of surprise and conditioning people with the Marksman cancels that have one of (if not the worst) recoveries in MKX.


- 211 Pressure is harder to avoid and will soon connect on hit, however with the missing 2112 tick throw this will surely become easier to spot (unless properly conditioned) and punished.


- 11b3 Ex Sand Grenade can be broken by something as simple as a poke. Keep in mind at this current point before the coming buffs to many characters (including Mileena with a 6 frame down 1) Kano has an 8 frame down 3. Kano also has very slow low pokes and this demonstrates just how easily this can be avoided. Keep in mind 11b3 does have a tick throw that will soon connect on hit but at the first sign of this Ex Sand Grenade many of the fast poking characters will laugh at the Gunslingers attempt.


- 21122 EX SAND GRENADE CAN BE BROKEN. Yes indeed the true block string 21122 Ex Sand Grenade can be armored through and with the many grappling options of Kano, this is a very simple task with the trained eye.


- Wakeup down 4s from Erron grant much space and are an excellent tool for keeping people away. These are easily conditioned out however with low kounters that Kano is offered in his variation.


- Without proper spacing 21122 can be seen swinging like a mad Irishman. This leaves for an easy option to kounter with Kano and knock the Irishman flat.


- Gunslinger stance into 3 is a death sentence.


- Gunslingers zoning pressure cannot keep up with faster zoning characters such as Kano.


- Again this should come as no surprise Erron's b33 Ex Sand Grenade can easily be armored through and conditioned out.


- Higher damage combos for less meter and easier execution.


FATALITY

Matchup favors Kano

In short with the coming nerfs being implemented to Erron Black and the large number of buffs including favorable tick throws Kano will surely make this matchup very unfavorable for the Gunslinger. With no true opportunities to get in as well as many options to be kountered.



iLLmAtiCx

 

[KingKhrystopher]

Lol SonicFox.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

SonicFox himself has said he favors Cassie on a tier list. He favors Erron for certain matchups as do I however with the coming nerfs and removal of several key pressure tools on March 1st the character will bleed.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I honestly think he'll be bottom tier now if he's left like this. He was already one of the most honest characters in the game pre-beta.

 

[ghostwriteous]

What if the nerfs arent staying? This thread might be a few days premature.

 

[Tweedy]

My opinions on your bullet points.

- F13 isn't pressure, it's a 50/50 that goes for 30%+ into oki. It should be punished if blocked.

- The loss of tick throws in 21122 is irrelevant since advanced players could option select them. The throw that remains might become more relevant vs good players, since the grab is now quicker.

- Again, with 11B3, you're mixing them up for big damage into oki. There should be ways to take your turn or punish, if you block it.

- 21122 EX sand grenade has a gap? It didn't before right? That sounds kind of weak.

- So let me get this straight, you're saying that Kano's are doing low kounter, on Erron's wake up, to catch D4s? What lol?

If you're talking about on Erron's wake up, that's a ridiculous risk when you have pressure. You gotta make your knockdown count on this game. No one that's not completel insane is just going to throw out his parry.

If you're referring to Kano's wake up, go into Erron's 50/50s or 21122. I don't see the issue here.

- Erron's neutral is weak. You're gonna have to land a D4 or whiff punish with 21122 in the neutral. His strengths are his options once he's knocked someone down, his 50/50s that lead to good damage, his tick throw options.

- Agreed Gunslinger stance 3 seems like a gimmick. If it works it WORKS, but any advanced player will blow it up.

- I don't think Gunslinger is supposed to zone. The variation is meant to enhance his neutral.

- B32 EX sand grenade has no gap, AND again, you're going for a 50/50 that leads to big damage and oki. You should get punished, and hell, you're not if you sacrifice a percent or two by doing B32 instead.

- A LOT of stuff in this game can be fuzzy guarded. Erron Black has true 50/50s that can be made somewhat safe(B32 EX nade for a safe low), that lead to good damage and oki. Not sure if Kano does more, but he definitely doesn't do that much more.

I'd also like to note that Erron's new 7 frame D1 is faster than any normal Kano has.

And a question. Does F12 tick throw on hit and block in the beta? I can't get anyone to test this with me lol.

 

[DDutchguy]

I honestly think he'll be bottom tier now if he's left like this. He was already one of the most honest characters in the game pre-beta.

>Plus on block 50/50s

> Tick throws like no tomorrow

I'm not sure what characters you find dishonest but it's not like Erron Black doesn't have any dirt.

 

[B. Shazzy]

My opinions on your bullet points.

F13 isn't pressure, it's a 50/50 that goes for 30%+ into oki. It should be punished if blocked.

The loss of tick throws in 21122 is irrelevant since advanced players could option select them. The throw that remains might become more relevant vs good players, since the grab is now quicker.

Again, with 11B3, you're mixing them up for big damage into oki. There should be ways to take your turn or punish, if you block it.

21122 EX sand grenade has a gap? It didn't before right? That sounds kind of weak.

So let me get this straight, you're saying that Kano's are doing low kounter, on Erron's wake up, to catch D4s? What lol?

- If you're talking about on Erron's wake up, that's a ridiculous risk when you have pressure. You gotta make your knockdown count on this game. No one that's not completel insane is just going to throw out his parry.

- If you're referring to Kano's wake up, go into Erron's 50/50s or 21122. I don't see the issue here.

- Erron's neutral is weak. You're gonna have to land a D4 or whiff punish with 21122 in the neutral. His strengths are his options once he's knocked someone down, his 50/50s that lead to good damage, his tick throw options.

- Agreed Gunslinger stance 3 seems like a gimmick. If it works it WORKS, but any advanced player will blow it up.

- I don't think Gunslinger is supposed to zone. The variation is meant to enhance his neutral.

- B32 EX sand grenade has no gap, AND again, you're going for a 50/50 that leads to big damage and oki. You should get punished, and hell, you're not if you sacrifice a percent or two by doing B32 instead.

- A LOT of stuff in this game can be fuzzy guarded. Erron Black has true 50/50s that can be made somewhat safe(B32 EX nade for a safe low), that lead to good damage and oki. Not sure if Kano does more, but he definitely doesn't do that much more.

I'd also like to note that Erron's new 7 frame D1 is faster than any normal Kano has.

And a question. Does F12 tick throw on hit and block in the beta? I can't get anyone to test this with me lol.

My opinions on your bullet points.

- F13 isn't pressure, it's a 50/50 that goes for 30%+ into oki. It should be punished if blocked.

- The loss of tick throws in 21122 is irrelevant since advanced players could option select them. The throw that remains might become more relevant vs good players, since the grab is now quicker.

- Again, with 11B3, you're mixing them up for big damage into oki. There should be ways to take your turn or punish, if you block it.

- 21122 EX sand grenade has a gap? It didn't before right? That sounds kind of weak.

- So let me get this straight, you're saying that Kano's are doing low kounter, on Erron's wake up, to catch D4s? What lol?

If you're talking about on Erron's wake up, that's a ridiculous risk when you have pressure. You gotta make your knockdown count on this game. No one that's not completel insane is just going to throw out his parry.

If you're referring to Kano's wake up, go into Erron's 50/50s or 21122. I don't see the issue here.

- Erron's neutral is weak. You're gonna have to land a D4 or whiff punish with 21122 in the neutral. His strengths are his options once he's knocked someone down, his 50/50s that lead to good damage, his tick throw options.

- Agreed Gunslinger stance 3 seems like a gimmick. If it works it WORKS, but any advanced player will blow it up.

- I don't think Gunslinger is supposed to zone. The variation is meant to enhance his neutral.

- B32 EX sand grenade has no gap, AND again, you're going for a 50/50 that leads to big damage and oki. You should get punished, and hell, you're not if you sacrifice a percent or two by doing B32 instead.

- A LOT of stuff in this game can be fuzzy guarded. Erron Black has true 50/50s that can be made somewhat safe(B32 EX nade for a safe low), that lead to good damage and oki. Not sure if Kano does more, but he definitely doesn't do that much more.

I'd also like to note that Erron's new 7 frame D1 is faster than any normal Kano has.

And a question. Does F12 tick throw on hit and block in the beta? I can't get anyone to test this with me lol.

f12 tick throw is gone

>Plus on block 50/50s

> Tick throws like no tomorrow

I'm not sure what characters you find dishonest but it's not like Erron Black doesn't have any dirt.

only tick you would get caught by is 21122, normal> command grab maybe a few times

kano has jailing 50/50s, not plus 1 with pushback/ or with a gap that lead into 50%

oh you know what nvm. he's referring to commando exclusively, for some reason.

 

[Tweedy]

f12 tick throw is gone



only tick you would get caught by is 21122, normal> command grab maybe a few times

kano has jailing 50/50s, not plus 1 with pushback/ or with a gap

Let me clarify that all i'm saying is that EB is still a good character. I have no idea how good Commando Kano is on the beta.

Edit: Thx for the info bae

 

[thlityoursloat]

>Plus on block 50/50s

> Tick throws like no tomorrow

I'm not sure what characters you find dishonest but it's not like Erron Black doesn't have any dirt.

I never implied he didn't have any dirt, my implication was that his dirt wasn't really all that dirty.
And he doesn't have a plus on block 50/50.. the video showed that he didn't. Yeah, his low is safe but his overhead into EX SG has a gap you can jump.
His 21122 tick throw game was pretty much a gimmick if your opponent had bar thanks to the OS, and EVEN if you did get hit, he'd be -2 and almost halfscreen away, giving you room to breathe. Not that it matters anymore since they removed his best tick throws, sigh.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

My opinions on your bullet points.

- F13 isn't pressure, it's a 50/50 that goes for 30%+ into oki. It should be punished if blocked.

- The loss of tick throws in 21122 is irrelevant since advanced players could option select them. The throw that remains might become more relevant vs good players, since the grab is now quicker.

- Again, with 11B3, you're mixing them up for big damage into oki. There should be ways to take your turn or punish, if you block it.

- 21122 EX sand grenade has a gap? It didn't before right? That sounds kind of weak.

- So let me get this straight, you're saying that Kano's are doing low kounter, on Erron's wake up, to catch D4s? What lol?

If you're talking about on Erron's wake up, that's a ridiculous risk when you have pressure. You gotta make your knockdown count on this game. No one that's not completel insane is just going to throw out his parry.

If you're referring to Kano's wake up, go into Erron's 50/50s or 21122. I don't see the issue here.

- Erron's neutral is weak. You're gonna have to land a D4 or whiff punish with 21122 in the neutral. His strengths are his options once he's knocked someone down, his 50/50s that lead to good damage, his tick throw options.

- Agreed Gunslinger stance 3 seems like a gimmick. If it works it WORKS, but any advanced player will blow it up.

- I don't think Gunslinger is supposed to zone. The variation is meant to enhance his neutral.

- B32 EX sand grenade has no gap, AND again, you're going for a 50/50 that leads to big damage and oki. You should get punished, and hell, you're not if you sacrifice a percent or two by doing B32 instead.

- A LOT of stuff in this game can be fuzzy guarded. Erron Black has true 50/50s that can be made somewhat safe(B32 EX nade for a safe low), that lead to good damage and oki. Not sure if Kano does more, but he definitely doesn't do that much more.

I'd also like to note that Erron's new 7 frame D1 is faster than any normal Kano has.

And a question. Does F12 tick throw on hit and block in the beta? I can't get anyone to test this with me lol.

- The loss of a 21122 tick throw is not irrelevant. As I just demonstrated there is a gap within 21122 Ex Sand Grenade meaning you do not have the threat of a tick throw and punishing the sand grenade is all but to easy. 21122 is a MID remember this after this string you are left in a perfect position standing in front of them to be NJP'd.

- It is safe to say 90% of Erron's option for f13 so it is indeed a mixup but one to many can guess on. At this point in the game its a routine many fall victim to.

- Again I am aware of the mixup options of Erron Black (One of the only good things left in this character since he is no true grappler) However this if blocked is TWO lows meaning the first sight of that EX sand grenade bye bye meter and welcome the punish.

- Yes 21122 has a gap, I have tested this with other characters like Kenshi, Sub Zero and the likes.

- Absolutely I am saying predicting a low wakeup from Erron (especially without Outlaws wakeup options) is not a bad idea. Down 4 leads to excellent spacing as well as Errons slide (both are lows)

- Kano's parry is easily thrown out and if guessed correctly throws them back on the ground to think about what just happened. This is similar to Ermac's game of danger yes but all the while it still conditions people.

- 1. His tick throws are being removed 2. down 4 does not reach after EX Sand with pushback. 3. His 50/50s (unless facing a proper good Erron) are easily guessed (f13 f13 f13) I have never said however he is lacking 50/50s he does however have gaps in nearly EVERY string.

- Erron's Gunslinger is most definitely meant to be a zoning oriented class if is however outclassed by many characters. (Why is marksman so lacking?)

- I am aware this thread is premature that is precisely the point. This is explaining why the character will bleed with nerfs and no this is not specifically about commando. With the coming buffs to commando with the addition of tick throws he will become a much more viable character choice.

- Erron does not have a B32 string please refer to the character in the lab before posting.

- I am aware of the buffs to peoples low pokes hence why I bring this up before the patch. This is going to make the task even easier of breaking Erron's armor. Kano is simply a demonstration and for control over the argument you have to remain decisive.

 

[MsMiharo]

- The loss of a 21122 tick throw is not irrelevant. As I just demonstrated there is a gap within 21122 Ex Sand Grenade meaning you do not have the threat of a tick throw and punishing the sand grenade is all but to easy. 21122 is a MID remember this after this string you are left in a perfect position standing in front of them to be NJP'd.

- It is safe to say 90% of Erron's option for f13 so it is indeed a mixup but one to many can guess on. At this point in the game its a routine many fall victim to.

- Again I am aware of the mixup options of Erron Black (One of the only good things left in this character since he is no true grappler) However this if blocked is TWO lows meaning the first sight of that EX sand grenade bye bye meter and welcome the punish.

- Yes 21122 has a gap, I have tested this with other characters like Kenshi, Sub Zero and the likes.

- Absolutely I am saying predicting a low wakeup from Erron (especially without Outlaws wakeup options) is not a bad idea. Down 4 leads to excellent spacing as well as Errons slide (both are lows)

- Kano's parry is easily thrown out and if guessed correctly throws them back on the ground to think about what just happened. This is similar to Ermac's game of danger yes but all the while it still conditions people.

- 1. His tick throws are being removed 2. down 4 does not reach after EX Sand with pushback. 3. His 50/50s (unless facing a proper good Erron) are easily guessed (f13 f13 f13) I have never said however he is lacking 50/50s he does however have gaps in nearly EVERY string.

- Erron's Gunslinger is most definitely meant to be a zoning oriented class if is however outclassed by many characters. (Why is marksman so lacking?)

- I am aware this thread is premature that is precisely the point. This is explaining why the character will bleed with nerfs and no this is not specifically about commando. With the coming buffs to commando with the addition of tick throws he will become a much more viable character choice.

- Erron does not have a B32 string please refer to the character in the lab before posting.

- I am aware of the buffs to peoples low pokes hence why I bring this up before the patch. This is going to make the task even easier of breaking Erron's armor. Kano is simply a demonstration and for control over the argument you have to remain decisive.

Isn't b321 his launching low? I don't know I haven't played Erron since like the first month.

 

[Tweedy]

- Erron does not have a B32 string please refer to the character in the lab before posting.

Uhhhhhhhh, yes he does.

"please refer to the character in the lab before posting"

I could easily drill you for being wrong and super condescending at the time same. Won't, though. Have a nice day.

Edit: I'm sorry, after that remark and you still suggesting that Kano parrying on Erron's wake up, is a good idea, I don't know. There's different levels of knowledge, anyone can post on TYM.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Uhhhhhhhh, yes he does.

"please refer to the character in the lab before posting"

I could easily drill you for being wrong and super condescending at the time same. Won't, though. Have a nice day.

Edit: I'm sorry, after that remark and you still suggesting that Kano parrying on Erron's wake up, is a good idea, I don't know. There's different levels of knowledge, anyone can post on TYM.

Sir not trying to be condescending I see what string you are talking about B32 U1. That is not a 50/50 that is a low and a mid which leaves you incredibly negative on block. This is not a true block string either is what I meant. As in go test it calm yourself.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I think he means B32 EX SG, which is (or was, pre-beta) a true blockstring.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

I think he means B32 EX SG, which is (or was, pre-beta) a true blockstring.

I get you, that would typically be a waste of meter however. This as well needs only blocked low, leaves you incredibly negative, is not a 50/50, and does not do so much as 5% chip. You are correct though EX sand in his low launcher cannot be armored through if blocked.

 

[MsMiharo]

I get you, that would typically be a waste of meter however. This as well needs only blocked low, leaves you incredibly negative, is not a 50/50, and does not do so much as 5% chip. You are correct though EX sand in his low launcher cannot be armored through if blocked.

You seem to misunderstand how everyone else uses the term 50/50. EB has a low and OH starter = 50/50. Not 50/50 within a string.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

You seem to misunderstand how everyone else uses the term 50/50. EB has a low and OH starter = 50/50. Not 50/50 within a string.

No I understand entirely, the mid in B32 whiffs more than half of the time, the Ex Sand does no chip, this isn't a pressure tool, and if you mean as in you can also do b33 that is also a low. Sure you could say if used in succession with one of his overhead strings another 50/50. Break down the frame data and how obvious these are to block then no I would not call this a true 50/50

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

No I understand entirely, the mid in B32 whiffs more than half of the time, the Ex Sand does no chip, this isn't a pressure tool, and if you mean as in you can also do b33 that is also a low. Sure you could say if used in succession with one of his overhead strings another 50/50. Break down the frame data and how obvious these are to block then no I would not call this a true 50/50

I will give you that its a low and can be hard to block but I like to break things down further than that. I'll give it to you though no argument.

 

[MsMiharo]

No I understand entirely, the mid in B32 whiffs more than half of the time, the Ex Sand does no chip, this isn't a pressure tool, and if you mean as in you can also do b33 that is also a low. Sure you could say if used in succession with one of his overhead strings another 50/50. Break down the frame data and how obvious these are to block then no I would not call this a true 50/50

You have a overhead starter (f1) and a low starter (b3) which both lead to a full combo. How is this not a true 50/50?

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

You have a overhead starter (f1) and a low starter (b3) which both lead to a full combo. How is this not a true 50/50?

You're misunderstanding me I, I am talking about strings and blocking in this thread. Erron has many 50/50 I am breaking down which are true block strings. In the video I have broken down many gaps within the strings this is not about the starters of his combos but the gaps. I am talking about mixups B33 is low low B32 is low mid. How hard are these to block where can they be broken. Absolutely used as a started either can be used as a 50/50 none above are pressure tools but we are talking about EX sand grenade. I understand things got jumbled. That happens when people lose their cool like above and jump to a different conclusion than you.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

You have a overhead starter (f1) and a low starter (b3) which both lead to a full combo. How is this not a true 50/50?

You're misunderstanding me I, I am talking about strings and blocking in this thread. Erron has many 50/50 I am breaking down which are true block strings. In the video I have broken down many gaps within the strings this is not about the starters of his combos but the gaps. I am talking about mixups B33 is low low B32 is low mid. How hard are these to block where can they be broken. Absolutely used as a started either can be used as a 50/50 none above are pressure tools but we are talking about EX sand grenade. I understand things got jumbled. That happens when people lose their cool like above and jump to a different conclusion than you.

Erron absolutely has 50/50 no argument there but very very few true block strings. That is why I have broken down (using Kano as a simple demonstration) the matchup method to Erron. Erron has very few launchers and with the coming nerfs many of his tools will be cut however his many uses of 50/50s will exist however nearly all of those strings can be broken.

 

[MsMiharo]

You're misunderstanding me I, I am talking about strings and blocking in this thread. Erron has many 50/50 I am breaking down which are true block strings. In the video I have broken down many gaps within the strings this is not about the starters of his combos but the gaps. I am talking about mixups B33 is low low B32 is low mid. How hard are these to block where can they be broken. Absolutely used as a started either can be used as a 50/50 none above are pressure tools but we are talking about EX sand grenade. I understand things got jumbled. That happens when people lose their cool like above and jump to a different conclusion than you.

Why would he need 50/50 starters and 50/50s within (true) block strings though? Just why.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Why would he need 50/50 starters and 50/50s within (true) block strings though? Just why.

That's not my argument now your off topic. This is about the coming nerfs to the character and how it will affect it. There is no such thing a 50/50 within a true block string breaking that string however absolutely exists and nearly all of them can be broken. I showed that above pre patch however this is a topic on his coming nerfs and if they are truly necessary not about the character in its current state.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

That's not my argument now your off topic. This is about the coming nerfs to the character and how it will affect it. There is no such thing a 50/50 within a true block string breaking that string however absolutely exists and nearly all of them can be broken. I showed that above pre patch however this is a topic on his coming nerfs and if they are truly necessary not about the character in its current state.

That is why Erron fails here he is losing tools that are already necessary and being given things to remove pressure such as pushback on an Ex Sand that can already be broken. 21122 Sand Needs to become at the very least a true block string if the removal of his tick throw exists. This is showing where the character fails not necessary buffs that need to exist. Erron is far to dependent of 50/50 block strings that are often guessed right.