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Why do people hate Injustice 2? Podcast Discussion.

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
The irony here is just off the charts.
You are the fucking personification of hypocrisy.
I respect people's opinions and preferences, but that doesn't mean someone can make claims that are out of this world with very specific and "cut' reasons while ignoring the rest of the facts and factors across the history of NRS and fighting games in general, and then expect others to take it seriously. How can someone take this claim seriously while you have to consider the history of fighting games, the influence of WB etc, but you ignore that and just put the focus on the cycle and the patches, and even combining the cycle and the lifespan while they are two different things.

You, sir, are the personification of ignorance, if anything.

I honestly think you are seeing things how you want to see them and taking thing waaayy out of proportion Roy...
On the contrary, I see things the way they are. And if what you're saying is true, then this is true not just for me, but also for Slips and the others. Claiming the games aren't build to last, based on very specific and "cut" reasons and ignoring the rest, that is a lot closer to what seeing things how you want to see the actually means.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
When have you ever known Sonic to not pick up a character quickly, no matter how complex?

He learns faster than everyone else — which is why he wins more than everyone else. Like Tweedy said, both of them have been training to do this since before they were old enough to drive.

Given that Sonic is a prodigy and can pick up most fighting game characters within a week, it’s a bad comparison to draw. But you knew that already imo.
I love how you entirely ignored my other examples and proceeded to smooch Sonic Fox's rear end, as you always do.
 

Icefyre

Shadows
Once you said stuff like that, you basically saying "there is no point to even consider to get into the competitive scene for those games because it's not worth it".
I'm not looking for a heated fight here, but for the sake of clarification I feel the need to address this. This statement was never the intention. To be honest, this entire idea never even crossed my mind when reading any post on the subject.

I agree that people should be more careful at times with their word choices. Some of the things people say can be misleading, and potentially would not be so had they chosen different words/phrases to use. However, the flip side of that very coin is that people are often capable of reading into things that are not there. I can accept that people should be careful about how they word things; I'm asking you to accept that people are just as capable of taking things out of context. Given your statement that I quoted, this seems to be the case in this situation.

This is also highlighted by your own claim that trying to show the difference between an observation and a complaint is "an excuse". It's not an excuse when you're attempting to show somebody the reality of a situation that they've interpreted incorrectly. When I said he made an observation, I was attempting to clarify the context for you, not defend it.

I understand that you keep throwing out other user's names in an attempt to validate your claims, even those who haven't even directly weighed in on your view. However, I ask that you also see that there are far more people who are trying to tell you that you've taken the subject way out of proportion. I'm not attempting to insult you by saying any of this, I'm just trying to tell you that your choice of words in past posts have been needlessly aggressive.

Everything I said in my recent post was true. I have no hate for Injustice 2, and no desire to see it fail regardless of any particular criticism I have of it. So in this regard, I can accept your apology for the accusation.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I love how you entirely ignored my other examples and proceeded to smooch Sonic Fox's rear end, as you always do.
I addressed them both. You intentionally picked the two people, Sonic and Rewind, that are specifically known for picking up even difficult characters abnormally fast. It’s literally their calling card. That’s like saying the game of basketball is too easy because Lebron James makes it look easy.

The Sonic example was particularly egregious, but picking Rewind (who is touted to be a rising similar type of protege) is nearly as bad.

https://twitter.com/noble_tweedy/status/1017553866487934982?s=21

Come on Dave.. Don’t be a fool. Someone has spiked the water in Ohio with Vokda.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I'm not looking for a heated fight here, but for the sake of clarification I feel the need to address this. This statement was never the intention. To be honest, this entire idea never even crossed my mind when reading any post on the subject.

I agree that people should be more careful at times with their word choices. Some of the things people say can be misleading, and potentially would not be so had they chosen different words/phrases to use. However, the flip side of that very coin is that people are often capable of reading into things that are not there. I can accept that people should be careful about how they word things; I'm asking you to accept that people are just as capable of taking things out of context. Given your statement that I quoted, this seems to be the case in this situation.

This is also highlighted by your own claim that trying to show the difference between an observation and a complaint is "an excuse". It's not an excuse when you're attempting to show somebody the reality of a situation that they've interpreted incorrectly. When I said he made an observation, I was attempting to clarify the context for you, not defend it.

I understand that you keep throwing out other user's names in an attempt to validate your claims, even those who haven't even directly weighed in on your view. However, I ask that you also see that there are far more people who are trying to tell you that you've taken the subject way out of proportion. I'm not attempting to insult you by saying any of this, I'm just trying to tell you that your choice of words in past posts have been needlessly aggressive.

Everything I said in my recent post was true. I have no hate for Injustice 2, and no desire to see it fail regardless of any particular criticism I have of it. So in this regard, I can accept your apology for the accusation.
First off I wanna make something perfectly clear, I wasn't aggressive in any of my posts n that same thread, I was only shocked from some of the stuff that you and others said as they were ridiculous, or at the very list sounded as such, and if I was aggressive in that thread or the previous argument of mine in this thread, that's only because people tried to purposely piss me off or just bland out insulted me. I wasn't aggressive on my own accord in any shape or form. I hope I have clarified that.

And regarding this topic at hand, yes I'm aware that people can take things out of context, but that wasn't the case here for me. I read both what you and Juggs said, and that is the message that you guys delivered. Now this might not have been your intention nor you were aware of the misleading that this can cause, and that is understandable, but considering that are games are truly not built to last by their core design from other genres, and the way you ignored the other factors other then the most "comfortable" ones to mention (the 2 year business mode is completely separated from the lifespan, as well as the dev support) there is almost no way that someone from the outside who wanna join this community and also doesn't know all of the factors involved or even a casual fan of NRS who also might not know it all, gets across that thread, see this comment and that isn't the message he gets from it, and then walks away without looking back. Because on one hand, he is new to the competitive portion of the community and wanna join, and on the other hand you make this claim in such a convincing and confident fashion, that's what new people in the community will understand and leave because of that, as well as being delivered to people who are already in the community via the typical internet hyperbole snowball effect.

And that is one of the things that hurt the community and TYM, people just say hyperbole stuff without thinking long term, and then no wonder the competitive portion of the NRS community doesn't grow that much. Just like in the case of Sonic Fox and his salty Tweet about Black Adam, as it basically says, even if he doesn't aware of that, that you don't need that much skill to be good in Injustice 2 because all you need is just to put some work on Black Adam and that's it. Yes Juggs and you aren't Sonic, but considering the history of TYM, once hyperbole stuff starts to roll, it's only a matter of time before it will become a fact and it will have the same influence as of a pro like Sonic. And yes I'm aware that people need to take any case as it's own, but that was one of those times were the cases are essentially the same. Both claims basically said "it's not worth playing IJ2 on a high level".

So no, I didn't take things out of proportions, because saying something like, using only the same very specific reasons that are comfortable to say, will cause only harm to the community, the scene and TYM whatever you aware and admit that or not.

And about your "context clarification", you essentially did ignore stuff like that people still play MKX despite IJ2 being the newer game and relied on the fact that it didn't happen with MKX and IJ1 without taking into account the fact that others have matured and realized you don't need to have dev support to play the game, as well as saying obvious stuff like not playing games from the same series like MKX and MK9 at the same, while we were talking about playing games from the two different ones, like MKX and IJ2. Those were among the stuff that made it very hard for me to that "clarification" seriously.

I only hope now that you see what I meant and what was my intention.

I really feel like this argument has been gone for far too long, there is no need to continue. I will stop here.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
I addressed them both. You intentionally picked the two people, Sonic and Rewind, that are specifically known for picking up even difficult characters abnormally fast. It’s literally their calling card. That’s like saying the game of basketball is too easy because Lebron James makes it look easy.

The Sonic example was particularly egregious, but picking Rewind (who is touted to be a rising similar type of protege) is nearly as bad.

https://twitter.com/noble_tweedy/status/1017553866487934982?s=21

Come on Dave.. Don’t be a fool. Someone has spiked the water in Ohio with Vokda.
I understand that your job on these forums has been reduced to ingratiating yourself to Sonic Fox every little opportunity you get, but the point is that high level players, including the ones not named Sonic Fox and Rewind, whom you are still ignoring, are learning and picking up more characters than ever before. Maybe because players already knew how to play half the game upon release, as you suggested. Maybe because the previous installment of the game was so unbalanced that there was no need to pick up and learn other characters, as Hippo mentioned. Maybe because the community has matured and become better players, as I personally believe. Or maybe because Injustice 2, or its current meta, is easier to play. I think a little bit of truth lies in all of these rationales.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
So if make that type of a claim for those reasons, then yes, it does make you sound like a hater, and top of that it makes you look like you don't any responsibility for what you're saying, as if you're saying that NRS are the only problem here, while those claims surely make you to be the problem. You might have not noticed that, but that's the case here. I know what I saw, and I read exactly what you said.

So yeah, you can any opinion you want, but you need to be cautions with your words, that's all I'm saying.
Yeah, nevermind the fact I’ve repeatedly said that if no one dropped the games they wouldn’t die. This is why I said you only read what you want to read.

And I will say whatever the fuck I want, how about that?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I understand that your job on these forums has been reduced to ingratiating yourself to Sonic Fox every little opportunity you get, but the point is that high level players, including the ones not named Sonic Fox and Rewind, whom you are still ignoring, are learning and picking up more characters than ever before. Maybe because players already knew how to play half the game upon release, as you suggested. Maybe because the previous installment of the game was so unbalanced that there was no need to pick up and learn other characters, as Hippo mentioned. Maybe because the community has matured and become better players, as I personally believe. Or maybe because Injustice 2, or its current meta, is easier to play. I think a little bit of truth lies in all of these rationales.
You brought Fox up here, not me. But yeah — legacy game, more money = people want to win, not just represent. Sponsored players feel pressure to perform, players who want to be sponsored want to place as high as possible.

People are trying to make careers out of this now, rather than just represent their scene or their character.

Indeed there are a couple of characters that are easier to pick up that are meta, but it’s not the entire cast.

In every other competitive esport they play the meta, hire coaches and analysts to fine-tune every strategic advantage, and even trade players based on what the strongest elements of the game are currently. We’re just catching up, and not used to these ideas because most of the people arguing only follow fighting games.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Truth is though, we saw plenty of counterpicking late in MK9 too. Everyone had a pocket Kenshi for Dizzy’s cage. There were tons of pocket Kabals to cover people’s losing MUs. Jr. had a Kabal, Carl had a Kabal and a Kenshi, King had a Kabal+Kenshi, etc. People were picking up Sonyas and Cyrax’s left and right, etc.

So if you count this as year 3-4 of the IGAU gameplay engine it makes sense.
 
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Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Yeah, nevermind the fact I’ve repeatedly said that if no one dropped the games they wouldn’t die. This is why I said you only read what you want to read.

And I will say whatever the fuck I want, how about that?
I didn't deny you saying that, not even once. Of course it is true, but you need to think WHY people who already had the game drop it, and that's what I was trying to say, in addition for new people who wanna try the game. And yeah, you can say whatever you want, but then you can't be surprised if the condition won't change for the better because of this.

But I guess never mind those facts, right?
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I didn't deny you saying that, not even once. Of course it is true, but you need to think WHY people who already had the game drop it, and that's what I was trying to say, in addition for new people who wanna try the game. And yeah, you can say whatever you want, but then you can't be surprised if the condition won't change for the better because of this.

But I guess never mind those facts, right?
... and top of that it makes you look like you don't any responsibility for what you're saying, as if you're saying that NRS are the only problem here...

... as if you're saying that NRS are the only problem here...
I guess if reading is hard, reading what you wrote yourself is harder.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
I guess if reading is hard, reading what you wrote yourself is harder.
I see you didn't get what I meant. I meant to say that people can drop the game BECAUSE of the stuff that you're saying and the way you're saying them, such as "the games don't built to last", and as if NRS are the only problem here. That's what I meant by you need to think WHY people drop the game, because they see what you and so many other people saying, both pros and small people alike, whatever it is because they just wanna get buffs/nerfs, because they just wanna say hyperbole stuff, because out of pure salt or whatever reason there might be.

It never was a reason next to people drop the game for why the scene doesn't grow, that was THE REASON that I was trying to explain to you on WHY people drop the game and therefore, causing the scene to not grow.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
I guess if reading is hard, reading what you wrote yourself is harder.
Why even bother? This dude is involved the most inane arguments in every thread he touches. Moves the goalposts, selectively reads/interprets and lives to argue.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Why even bother? This dude is involved the most inane arguments in every thread he touches. Moves the goalposts, selectively reads/interprets and lives to argue.
Like you didn't start an argument with me regarding Quan Chi out of your own misunderstanding and never apologized. Get a life dude.

I've never seen someone type so much to say so little.
I admit that my posts can be shorter, and I do work on that, I just wanna express my thoughts and cover all the points I feel that is necessary to cover. And I do say a lot, I assure you.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
I really feel like this argument has been gone for far too long, there is no need to continue. I will stop here.
This was like 5 posts ago. Dude why do you always have to have the last word?

Your whole argument boils down to “Anyone that has something constructive or negative to say about the game or the balance of characters is personally killing the game and scene and is only doing so out of selfish and self serving motivations.”

Developers need feedback on the game to improve it and future iterations. It’s like you take every criticism personally as if in your mind NRS can do no wrong, it’s crazy man. And you push this idea that every character is viable and designed exactly correctly and the only thing holding a certain character back is people’s time out in, and that’s simply not true, even in a balanced game like this.

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out issues.
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
Like you didn't start an argument with me regarding Quan Chi out of your own misunderstanding and never apologized. Get a life dude.



I admit that my posts can be shorter, and I do work on that, I just wanna express my thoughts and cover all the points I feel that is necessary to cover. And I do say a lot, I assure you.
Dude you’re the dumbest person on this site with the loudest opinion. You’re a joke.
 

Wigy

There it is...
This was like 5 posts ago. Dude why do you always have to have the last word?

Your whole argument boils down to “Anyone that has something constructive or negative to say about the game or the balance of characters is personally killing the game and scene and is only doing so out of selfish and self serving motivations.”

Developers need feedback on the game to improve it and future iterations. It’s like you take every criticism personally as if in your mind NRS can do no wrong, it’s crazy man. And you push this idea that every character is viable and designed exactly correctly and the only thing holding a certain character back is people’s time out in, and that’s simply not true, even in a balanced game like this.

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out issues.
Watch him reply. He alwaaaaaays does
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Ok. Guys. Can we not ruin every thread with a semi-personal argument between the same few people. First it was funny, now not-so-funny, and it's gotten to the point where it's derailing multiple threads.

I'm going to ask everybody who's involved in this tussle to stop firing shots at each other than just chill out -- @Icefyre @Cashual @Roy Arkon @Juggs @Wigy @God Confirm etc.

(Don't reply to this and say "But he said" or "But she said" or "But it's someone else's fault". Just let it go and breathe :))