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Strategy - Cutthroat Why d4-db1 is a bad idea.

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Since the last patch, most people are aware of the buff CT Kano received regarding his Blade Slice (db1) move, which went from -8 to -5. Since this buff, we've seen a lot of examples of the move being used when it would never be used before, such as in block strings, as a footsies tool, or to catch counter pokes. Specifically, I want to look at the usage of d4~db1 and outline why you shouldn't really do it.

The general purpose of d4 cancelled into blade slice is to catch people pressing buttons (counter poking) after your poke is blocked, which then leads into some pressure for Kano. I can see the appeal of this; db1 is safe so if it's blocked there is no risk, and on hit you get frame advantage. The main problem with this tactic is that it stems from a read that the opponent is going to block your d4, as the main purpose is to trick them into letting go of block which would lead them to getting hit by db1.

If you were reading that they would block, why didn't you 50/50 them? There is less risk and much greater reward when you do this, as D4~db1 can be interrupted with armour or even an 8f normal, and if db1 is blocked you're in a meta game that stems from your minus frames instead of neutral or plus frames. Would you rather have hit them with a 50/50 into a combo and corner death, or with db1? That is the core question you should ask yourself regarding the usage of this tactic.

The other problem with this tactic is that you can't hit confirm your d4 when you do this, meaning that if your poke hit them and they then block the db1, you have surrendered your frame advantage and turned it into disadvantage for no good reason. Frame advantage to CT Kano is very scary for the opponent to have to deal with and really is where you get to use your 50/50 the most, so it is quite costly to waste it because you didn't want to hit confirm your d4 properly.

In order for CT Kano to achieve the monster potential he has, the players need to iron out the inaccuracies and gimmicks in his current play style, of which d4~db1 is certainly one of, and properly apply fundamentals and patience to the neutral game, which is the area of the game I personally feel is the weakest of CT's current gameplay.

tl:dr Rely on your reactions and reads instead of d4~db1. If you think they'll block then 50/50 them, if you think they'll get hit the, don't cancel the poke.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
While I agree with the post both your 50/50 options are significantly slower and have less range than d4. That being said, if I'm being quite honest, the times I do use d4 slice is when I'm just auto piloting (or going against someone who's mashing constantly). I think it's a decent tool to throw out every once but not as often as it is used atm (this includes me)

Good post, reminding us to level up.
 

Eminent

Forum Lurker
After d4 on hit I usually run up. If you go for the 50/50, people tend to armor out so I use 112 or f4 because it jails. After a f4 on hit you have advantage with little push back, do the 50/50 then.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
After d4 on hit I usually run up. If you go for the 50/50, people tend to armor out so I use 112 or f4 because it jails. After a f4 on hit you have advantage with little push back, do the 50/50 then.
Why not do a F2 after D4?
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
The reason people do things like that is because every read is an educated guess. You can't say "if you thought this why not do that" because people are rarely 100% sure.

It's like saying why not wake up with throw or buttons if you have a reversal. You're not totally confident.

A
I'm not talking about this context, just general fg psychology
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
The reason people do things like that is because every read is an educated guess. You can't say "if you thought this why not do that" because people are rarely 100% sure.

It's like saying why not wake up with throw or buttons if you have a reversal. You're not totally confident.

I'm not talking about this context, just general fg psychology
The reason behind it doesn't matter when he has better options for both reads made. It's not like he's taking a big risk when he goes for either option. Of course you're never 100% but if you never did anything in a FG until you were 100% you would just block the entire match.

While I agree with the post both your 50/50 options are significantly slower and have less range than d4. That being said, if I'm being quite honest, the times I do use d4 slice is when I'm just auto piloting (or going against someone who's mashing constantly). I think it's a decent tool to throw out every once but not as often as it is used atm (this includes me)

Good post, reminding us to level up.
The speed of his 50/50 in this context doesn't matter if an opponent is blocking.
 

Eminent

Forum Lurker
Why not do a F2 after D4?
Unless d4 hits at point blank range you're not going to have enough time to run up and jail with f21 I'd imagine. If they block f2, you're going to have to confirm into blade slice to stay safe. I'd rather run up and do s11 and be slightly plus. You can usually go for the 50/50 then.
 
Unless d4 hits at point blank range you're not going to have enough time to run up and jail with f21 I'd imagine. If they block f2, you're going to have to confirm into blade slice to stay safe. I'd rather run up and do s11 and be slightly plus. You can usually go for the 50/50 then.
You have just as much time if you was going for f4. At least if you check with f21 then it's an easy hit confirm for 30% meter less and even if you played safe and did f21, db1 you would be plus 12 and not plus 9 like f4. You would even do more chip if they blocked.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Unless d4 hits at point blank range you're not going to have enough time to run up and jail with f21 I'd imagine. If they block f2, you're going to have to confirm into blade slice to stay safe. I'd rather run up and do s11 and be slightly plus. You can usually go for the 50/50 then.
If you hit it at point blank to medium range you should have enough time for f2. Max range you're not going to have enough frame advantage to jail 1,1 (which is mins 2 btw)
 

Eminent

Forum Lurker
Really 11 is -2? I'll take your word on it. Is standing 1 on it's own plus or am I just crazy?
Also I'll try using f2.
But yeah from max range you would be able to jail with f4 I'm pretty sure which is why I suggested it.
 

bdizzle2700

gotta stay sharp!
Its been awhile cant you also back dash and invincibility frames will make slice wiff? Obviously would be character dependent but 10/10 would d4 slice again. Lol
 

Jupe

Noob
You can still option select the db1 to only come out on block, this way you won't waste the +frames of d4 on hit.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Totally agree, and this extends to a majority of the cast, and to more than Kano players. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that I see all the time, unless you are Bo Rai Cho outside of Bartitsu, then you have no good reason to do this.

I personally think doing any advantageous frame d4 into a special is the most pointless thing in the game, considering you give up your D4 hi advantage to put yourself minus and work from there. I get what people are getting at with it, but it is just misguided and another form of fishing instead of just hit confirming.

Another thing, Kano's D4 spaces himself out, its safe, there is no risk to just having it blocked, and if it hits you can jail your pressure, why would anyone give that up?

I see this with sub par Kung Lao players in Tempest, Sub Zero players in Grandmaster and so on, and now Kano, and the point that I just understand is that getting a D4 with Sub and Kano at a certain rage jails your standing 1's, the opponent can't armour, this leads to opponents get ripped up for not blocking or counter hit confirming, or opening up your throw game.

But I guess Tempest players can throw all that away to have their hat spin blocked and be -3...and I guess...random dive kick...genius.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
also, they may not be making a read that the opponent is going to block the d4, they may not have an idea what the opponent will do, so they'll just do d4 db1 to cover their options.

i don't see how its a bad option if u can't quite get a good read on the opponent yet and your sort of testing them.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
You can still option select the db1 to only come out on block, this way you won't waste the +frames of d4 on hit.
It's not a great idea because if you're always doing db1 on block after d4 then you're just giving the opponent the opportunity to punish you for no reason.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
also, they may not be making a read that the opponent is going to block the d4, they may not have an idea what the opponent will do, so they'll just do d4 db1 to cover their options.

i don't see how its a bad option if u can't quite get a good read on the opponent yet and your sort of testing them.
Then just do a d4 if you don't know, it is better in all respects.
 

DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

i'LL DESTROY YOU ALL
it works so why don't use :) but honestly, with the last D4 is more negative on block too so you need to pay attention if you don't follow it anyway. D4 is more lick a footsie tool so follow with DB1 is better against agressive opponents. U use D4 more for low profile and footsies
 

Parnak

Fight me as you will yet you can never hope to win
Couldn't agree with this post more, cancelling D4 to knife slice is easy but pointless, I would avoid it at all times cause one cannot block confirm it for meter build; my purpose for using D4 would be on its own for the +17 hit adv. that jails a run cancel to F212 string launcher or a run cancel into throw if they respect previous option. This is easy to do and effective, and if opponent respects F212 enough, you could try run cancel into 50/50 (B3/B1) even though these do not jail cornerless after D4 like F212 does.
 

Wigy

There it is...
But surely the knife after d4 trains the oponent to be wary of counterpoking, so you can get away with d4 on block a bit better?