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Who takes the top spot?

ChillerX

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
This is a question that I have wanted to ask for a lot of time. Injustice 2 may be the most balanced NRS game I have ever played. That makes this task even harder than usual, given that every character has at least two bad matchups.

But for real, which character in this game is worthy of the crown? Is it one of the top-tier zoners? Is it one of the usual suspects like Batman? Or is it some left-field character like Atom or Wonder Woman?

Explanations are appreciated.
 
Charybdis

Charybdis

We are returned! Death to the False Emperor!
If you put a gun to my head, I'd say either Firestorm or Starfire, likely Starfire, as it stands now. If played at what I suspect is absolute peak, using all the characters tools, Fate. But Batman, Catwoman and Adam are basically at the same level.

Arguably WoWo, Manta, Atom and Atrocitus too
 
ChillerX

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
Charybdis said:
If you put a gun to my head, I'd say either Firestorm or Starfire, likely Starfire, as it stands now. If played at what I suspect is absolute peak, using all the characters tools, Fate. But Batman, Catwoman and Adam are basically at the same level.

Arguably WoWo, Manta, Atom and Atrocitus too
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I wouldn't put Atrocitus with the other characters you mentioned. He has some more losing matchups. But like you, I am also leaning towards Fate. I hate good Fate players with the heat of the sun.
 
Charybdis

Charybdis

We are returned! Death to the False Emperor!
ChillerX said:
I wouldn't put Atrocitus with the other characters you mentioned. He has some more losing matchups. But like you, I am also leaning towards Fate. I hate good Fate players with the heat of the sun.
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The Atro point is probably fair, I'm biased because no character has ever wrecked my shit like good Atros
 
Skedar70

Skedar70

Noob
The best character in the game is Batman. No doubt. He has "The best" of many things for example: best trait, best jump in, best forward dash, best rushdown character in the game etc. Aside from that he has everything. He has a vortex, he has decent zoning that can outzone many character while building bar and rebuilding trait. He has many many plus frames with no gaps. Great meterless damage. He has no losing MU. What other character has this many options? Nobody
 
ChillerX

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
Skedar70 said:
The best character in the game is Batman. No doubt. He has "The best" of many things for example: best trait, best jump in, best forward dash, best rushdown character in the game etc. Aside from that he has everything. He has a vortex, he has decent zoning that can outzone many character while building bar and rebuilding trait. He has many many plus frames with no gaps. Great meterless damage. He has no losing MU. What other character has this many options? Nobody
Click to expand...
Batman is most certainly in this conversation. However, proclaiming that he has no bad matchups is a bit of a stretch. I can point to Red Hood, Green Arrow and Black Manta as matchups that he may struggle to win. Plus, I believe Catwoman might just be a little bit better when it comes to pure rushdown. Batman is more reliant on his vortex to pull off his shenanigans.

That said, Batman is a top contender and in my opinion, a firm lock for the top 5. But the best in the game? I cannot say that with full conviction. And I am a Batman player myself.
 
Skedar70

Skedar70

Noob
ChillerX said:
Batman is most certainly in this conversation. However, proclaiming that he has no bad matchups is a bit of a stretch. I can point to Red Hood, Green Arrow and Black Manta as matchups that he may struggle to win. Plus, I believe Catwoman might just be a little bit better when it comes to pure rushdown. Batman is more reliant on his vortex to pull off his shenanigans.

That said, Batman is a top contender and in my opinion, a firm lock for the top 5. But the best in the game? I cannot say that with full conviction. And I am a Batman player myself.
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Nah Catwoman is nowhere near Batmans oppressive rush down she es way more negative than him and even when batman is negative if he has trait out you might have to respect that. Batman doesn't lose any of those mentioned mu. You can see nubcakes and foreverking taking on these characters constantly and easy with just Batman. You being a Batman player makes me understand the whole point of this thread. Its not the first time Batman players have tried to downplay him out of position #1.
 
ChillerX

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
Skedar70 said:
Nah Catwoman is nowhere near Batmans oppressive rush down she es way more negative than him and even when batman is negative if he has trait out you might have to respect that. Batman doesn't lose any of those mentioned mu. You can see nubcakes and foreverking taking on these characters constantly and easy with just Batman. You being a Batman player makes me understand the whole point of this thread. Its not the first time Batman players have tried to downplay him out of position #1.
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Batman's oppression vs Catwoman's staggers is a debate that would be better on another thread. I respect your opinion. To each his own.

But your point about Batman having no losing matchups is certainly surprising. Batman most certainly loses to Green Arrow and Red Hood. Black Manta is debatable, but I have him as a losing one as well. Now that I think of it, even Atom and Captain Cold are possible 4-6 matchups. @ForeverKing could shed some light on the latter, because he is more qualified to do so than the two of us.

I am not downplaying Batman. I am well aware of the so called 'frequent Batman downplay' that goes on here. I have him as a solid top 5 character. Nubcakes and King are top players whose skills as players, when coupled with Batman's amazing tools, make for unbelievable matches. SonicFox, to use an example, made freaking Captain Cold look broken for a while. We all knew he was low-tier, but most Captain Cold players, hand on heart, only properly stopped whining about him after Fox demonstrated what he could do. Did that make him jump tiers? No.

So once again, I am not downplaying Batman out of the #1 spot. I honestly don't think he belongs there when there are characters like Firestorm, Fate and Catwoman in this game. That said, there's a very thin line separating him from those three.
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Skedar70 said:
The best character in the game is Batman. No doubt. He has "The best" of many things for example: best trait, best jump in, best forward dash, best rushdown character in the game etc. Aside from that he has everything. He has a vortex, he has decent zoning that can outzone many character while building bar and rebuilding trait. He has many many plus frames with no gaps. Great meterless damage. He has no losing MU. What other character has this many options? Nobody
Click to expand...
Your hatred for batman is insane lol. He's a top 5 character, hell even top 3, but top 1 with no losing matchups is a lie. You very obviously think losing matchups mean unwinnable, just because some very good players win matchups doesn't make them not bad matchups. I'm sure you win bad matchups right?

Also best trait and best forward dash i can agree with(in regards to traits Flash and atro are up there with him imo but I can see batman edging it out), but best jump in is a lie lol. Maybe last year but don't forget they nerfed it. Harley, Flash, and GL all are just as good, Flash is probably the best(triple overhead for fuck's sake). Best Rushdown also goes to flash lol, he's literally a walking coinflip.

His pressure isn't gapless. His pressure is very good before you get the wrong impression but not gapless. B11 trait is tradeable with 6f for example forcing him to potentially give up his turn(not saying the risk reward isnt in his favour but the risk is there regardless), after either mb batarang he can only guarantee f23 which gives up his turn. Midscreen he has to make a read to blow up anything and a dash after mb batarang is interruptable.

I really wanna make sure you understand I'm not saying the character isn't high tier or ridiculous, because he is, but please stop spewing lies and acting like he's unbeatable. He is very good, definitely top 5 minimum, very likely top 3, and I could honestly see why he could be top 1 if I really think about it(again not with no losing mus)
 
Sage Leviathan

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
ChillerX said:
Understandable. Could you tell me why?
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No problem! Why Catwoman and Firestorm, you ask?

CW: Female hitbox gives her a native advantage in the cast, b3 low-profiles and launches simultaneously, all her launchers are safe, multitude of meterless damage options, great meterless damage, only really needs meter for MB Cat Dash and clash, top notch staggers, 50/50 between 1f2 and 2d2, d+b3 (whip trip) has great range and recovery such that it can hardly be whiff punished, s3 breaks armor and hits mid, j2 is one of the best jumping attacks and jails into f1, can conveniently switch sides during combos at no expense to damage, trait is an awesome chip tool/punisher/meterless damage option all in one button, d2 has a hitbox so deceptive it could run for office, fast standing jab (6 or 7f?) that punishes most things, Cat Dash is very difficult to punish and actually safe from a certain distance, b2 is a godlike whiff punisher, arguably best corner game, Cat Evade builds meter like a factory, ending combos with straight whip gives her enough advantage to dash twice or build meter with a whiffed special, and on that note she has some of the best corner carrying combos in the game, etc.

FS: Controls space like no other character can, flame torpedo is an 8f reversal that can be done in the air, trait is chargeable, best d1 in the game (tied with Scarecrow), constant fear of being anti-aired or trip-guarded from anywhere on screen, level 3 trait in general, vortexes with ambiguous cross-ups both in and out of trait, amazing mids, Molten Trap difficult to punish at a distance because of the threat the MB version presents, stellar corner game with restands, supernova (or starfish or whatever it's called) shuts down entire character options, builds meter incredibly fast due to how willing the opponent is to block his specials, lightning fast MB projectile, has a special that reduces damage (which is almost constantly active), can conveniently switch sides during combos at no expense to damage, all of his specials build his trait on hit, b2 (while punishable) is free most of the time, air dash means ambiguous oki jump attack, range of MB b3, etc.

tl;dr: A for character design, F for fuck this balance.

If you asked me who came immediately after Firestorm, I would say Starfire.
 
Sage Leviathan

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
While I'm here, I'll throw my voice in about Batman.

"What are his losing matchups? None of us can really think of any, so that proves he's #1."

Let's talk about his flaws, which are thankfully really easy to understand… and incidentally more meaningful to the conversation because we already know how strong Batman is.
  1. His normal range is pretty garbage—there's f2 and that's it.
  2. Pokes aren't so great.
  3. Overreliant on trait.
  4. J2 doesn't mean anything to characters like Cold, Enchantress, etc.
  5. Zoning with batarangs, while effective, builds him no meter and does scarce more damage than other projectiles.
  6. Absolutely shite wakeup game.
  7. Oh, and for the cherry on top, MB air batarang whiffs entirely on females and other characters with low hitboxes like Scarecrow and Atom.
There are more for sure, but that's a good start.
Anyway, back to the discussion. How valuable is it to have no losing matchups, and what does that say about the character's place on a tier list?

Well, it's very valuable. And it says a lot. But it's not a solution.

Tier lists are calculated by matchup numbers. If Batman's chart is mostly 5-5s, then hey! That's great! But it doesn't mean he has the greatest average advantage over anyone else's chart. Doctor Fate, for instance, has about as many losing matchups as Batman (if not more!), but more 6-4s and 7-3s in his favor, so his chart on average has a higher probability of winning than Batman's chart.

You can read more about chart calculation here: https://www.nrstierlist.com/how-to-interpret/

And just for kicks, he struggles pretty consistently against Red Hood and Green Arrow.
 
ChillerX

ChillerX

Weapon of mass distraction
Sage Leviathan said:
While I'm here, I'll throw my voice in about Batman.

"What are his losing matchups? None of us can really think of any, so that proves he's #1."

Let's talk about his flaws, which are thankfully really easy to understand… and incidentally more meaningful to the conversation because we already know how strong Batman is.
  1. His normal range is pretty garbage—there's f2 and that's it.
  2. Pokes aren't so great.
  3. Overreliant on trait.
  4. J2 doesn't mean anything to characters like Cold, Enchantress, etc.
  5. Zoning with batarangs, while effective, builds him no meter and does scarce more damage than other projectiles.
  6. Absolutely shite wakeup game.
  7. Oh, and for the cherry on top, MB air batarang whiffs entirely on females and other characters with low hitboxes like Scarecrow and Atom.
There are more for sure, but that's a good start.
Anyway, back to the discussion. How valuable is it to have no losing matchups, and what does that say about the character's place on a tier list?

Well, it's very valuable. And it says a lot. But it's not a solution.

Tier lists are calculated by matchup numbers. If Batman's chart is mostly 5-5s, then hey! That's great! But it doesn't mean he has the greatest average advantage over anyone else's chart. Doctor Fate, for instance, has about as many losing matchups as Batman (if not more!), but more 6-4s and 7-3s in his favor, so his chart on average has a higher probability of winning than Batman's chart.

You can read more about chart calculation here: https://www.nrstierlist.com/how-to-interpret/

And just for kicks, he struggles pretty consistently against Red Hood and Green Arrow.
Click to expand...
Why are you on the Internet, sir? You sound sensible.

Thank you for your opinion.
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Invincible Salads said:
batmans wake up isnt as bad as u think, slide is fully invincible i believe.
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Its generally regarded as bad due to the fact that its death on whiff or block and doesn't really give particularly great damage or oki. He shouldn't have a good one considering his toolset though, and in an ideal world that would apply to most characters who are really good(starfire and flash most notably)
 
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