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Question - Sub-Zero Which Sub-Zero is Better

Which Sub-Zero

  • MK9

    Votes: 18 16.2%
  • MK X

    Votes: 93 83.8%

  • Total voters
    111

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Yeah it was awesome... until they removed it after EVO.
Having a run of being awesome, still strikes me as being more useful than being a complete waste of meter for the entire duration of the games lifespan (EX-Clone so far).

They are actually pretty similar in uselessness at the moment, now that I think about it.
 

-narshkajke-

klone enthusiast
Not here to get involved with which SZ is better. 2 things..

1. The overhead is "godlike"? It is full combo punished with little difficulty by almost the entire cast. Not something that is abuseable outside of corner traps and even then is full combo punished by half the cast.

2. Clone is a good move, but going away on block is a big deal. Turned matches like D'Vorah into 3-7s. At the very least the EX clone should form correctly as a special cancel off of attacks and remain on block like the old clone did.



I'm not sure why people think anything will change. I got over this weeks ago and I suggest you all do the same. SZ is not getting one single change or fix in any variation. I suggest you look at how I changed him around drastically once I just accepted this is how he is and there is no change coming. I did a BIG tutorial last night which I'm sure was missed by 90% of SZ players.
will it be posted in youtube?
 

Sage-Of-Light

Student of Nature
It is pitiful that people will have to wait until the fourth page to read a constructive, rational, and impartial post that answers the topic creator's dumb question.

May Tremor be a rush down character if I am wrong, but I highly doubt 90% of all Sub Zero players in this thread even played Mortal Kombat 9 and Sub Zero. If they did, they would know that Sub Zero did not even have a mid poke against 1/3rd of the characters. Perhaps more. He struggled immensely against top tier zoning characters, to whom he universally lost 7:3 except Kenshi, who probably beat him 8:2. In Mortal Kombat X, every Sub Zero weakness has been addressed to an extent. His anti-zoning tools have been vastly improved, his mid pokes can actually hit opponents, and running tremendously helps with maximum full-screen ice ball / ice blast conversions.

As far as ice clone disappearing on block and on hit, do you fools really want this change reverted? You fools do realize that as of 07/07/2015 another special move exists with identical functionality, right? And I am absolutely certain no player in the community would want to deal with this move not disappearing on block and on hit.
is it really a dumb question? or did I do it to see what opinions others have in this community hm?
 
Not even a comparison, ay true sub zero player knows mkx is a huge improvement in just about every way

Only thing I miss is using klone in the air, other than that I don't miss mk9 sub at all
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
MKX sub because: he is faster, better strings, more damage, better setups, stronger 50/50 game, his freeze is actually viable, #ShatterClone #ThrowsClone #CloneStopsProjectiles

i know i have a bad image towards Sub Zero in general, but id like to open up here and state that Sub Zero was my second favorite Ninja in MK2, i was a hardcore Raiden Fan in 1.

2 was Sub Zero, Reptile, Kung Lao.this is coming from a die hard Sub Zero fan... he is uber strong in this game, both corner and comeback factor.

i will say i have seen many awesome things with sub on mkx, his strategy has changed alot from mk9-mkx.. he is not as reliant on hiding behind that clone anymore... he is in your face shoving you into the corner, stuffing strings, tricking them into flling into a random clone... before i could end in timer, stay behind clone and your safe.... i like him in this one.... and honestly in this engine, how boring would mk9 SZ be?

i do have to admit i would love ground freeze
remember the good old days,,,, i think with this community they would have all been nerfed...every character.

3 hit 70%+ combos they all had them, some better than others... choughSmokehchmmmmm.
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Look at what he trades to get that Clone. Let's compare him to say Scorpion, a well balanced character with very similar normals and speed. Iceball is pretty comparative to Chain, they both have a slide (although Sub's is definitely a bit better)... now lets look at the trade offs. No Teleport, no Flame Aura, no Run Cancels, no real projectile excluding Clone Toss, no Unlockable Hell Fire, much weaker combos.

Now considering all this, it might be pretty easy to make a Clone "crappy" considering how much you are relying on it... especially if it was to say, be completely unsafe, be completely inconsistent and randomly whiff but still give you the recovery frames, disappear on block, and not actually freeze people who punch through it.

I'm not saying it's useless however, just that MK9 clone is a lot better.



Wait, so your opinion is that the new Ice Clone is UNARGUABLY better, because of two DIFFERENT specials that have interactions with it? That's got nothing to do with the Clone, on top of that, Clone Toss and the niche interaction that is Clone Shatter in no way make up for the safeness and reliability of MK9, and the fact that you can get Air clones. Saying "reliability" doesnt even do it justice, MK9's Clone is so much better than MK9's, thats why it's a "crappy Clone". The only sensible comparison is MK9's Clone to which it got worse, you can ARGUE otherwise, but to act like its so clean cut undebatable that it needed that retarded page swallowing gif is just you being an obnoxious twat.


Strikes me as being much more useful than EX-Clone. Just me though.
Air Clone was a lot more useful than THTB is giving in credit for that much is certain, but buy the same token you can't really compare scorpion to Sub since I'm mk9 scorpion still had weaker and much unsafer versions of the same things, where as in mkx it's subzero who could arguably have weaker versions of the same tools, but even this is false an here is why. The game engine itself works FAR better for sub in this game, than it ever did in 9, and even I'm Mk9 the clone was good. Now here's where we compare clones if you will.
Mk9 clone:
1) better for AAing purposes
2) much more consistent
3) doesn't go away on block
4) has the ability to take different shapes to match sub zero and more effectively control space.
5) jails people in the corner.
6) better freeze box
7) came out at closer ranges in neutral
8) clone timer was a lot better in 9 a LOT better
Cons:
1) didn't help him deal with zoning
2) not as imposing in the corner due to no 50/50 or throw.
MU where clone was useless:
Kabal (depending on the player)
Kung Lao
Smoke
Noob saibot
Shang Tsung
Kenshi
Sindel ( until cornered)
Kitanna
Freddy
Scarlet
Raiden ( if played right)
Sektor

MKX clone:
1) Can be tossed, offering chip damage, on hit does more than the average projectile.
2) can be used as a get in move
3) can be shattered also dealing chip, creating more space and offering a combo if conditions are right.
4) can have people pulled into it granting free combo, more pressure, or a set up.
5)can be comboed into in the corner
6) gives him one of the best corner games in the game due to 50/50 and the nature of the wake up system.
7) Great oki and pressure in the corner
8) better placement when opponents are knocked down
9) can be used as frame trap
10) has weird situations where as the opportunity in getting up or when crossed over in the corner they will get frozen.
Cons:
1) goes away on block
2) ex clone and regular clone or inconsistent
3) AAing freeze box is awful
4) unsafe when used in all string except f4
5) can be dashed block
MU where clone is useless
Kenshi
Free/Torr
Quan chi (until cornered)
Tanya
Takeda (maybe?)
Over all it seems that clone in MKX is more applicable in MKX. On paper there is no contest imo that MK9 clone is better but when it comes to game play, well the proof is in the pudding. Also guys feel free to add anymore to either list for either clone. I feel that the clone being good depends on the engine of the game itself more than anything.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
better strings,
uh... I agree that MKX Sub is better, but... no way in hell are the shit strings we have in this game better than MK9 Sub's strings.

22, 21, 212, 214, 224, b12, 13F4 were all amazing strings and were all mostly safe vs the majority of the cast with and without a clone cancel and without using meter. 22 was an amazing anti air, a 9 frame punisher that didn't require riding the opponents dick to use, and easily hit confirmable to combo or 224 clone on block.

All of his strings except for F12 in MKX are negative which seems to suggest that they were meant to cancel out of. Too bad doing that is punishable or requires meter. There's also no real threat of staggering and then poking for advantage since they're all negative.

Maybe I'm completely wrong. Entirely possible... this is why I wish I could see brady's videos.
 
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STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
And now that I think about it... I'm not entirely convinced that Ice Blast is better in this game than MKX. Enhanced version, absolutely... but regular? I don't know about that.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Okay so to whoever posted the ice puddle trap saying wow what are you talking about this seems for useful than mkx ex clone. STOP. The garuanteed reset was removed and every other ice puddle set up can be avoided on reaction. So STOP. To the person randomly attacking I Got HANDS, he is fine, whether you agree or disagree with him, he's certainly no worse than the average tym poster so STOP. As far as mk9 air clone being useful, the only matchup I ever actually used it in was csz and even then it was sparingly. So STOP. You people drive me crazy lol.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Okay so to whoever posted the ice puddle trap saying wow what are you talking about this seems for useful than mkx ex clone. STOP. The garuanteed reset was removed and every other ice puddle set up can be avoided on reaction. So STOP. To the person randomly attacking I Got HANDS, he is fine, whether you agree or disagree with him, he's certainly no worse than the average tym poster so STOP. As far as mk9 air clone being useful, the only matchup I ever actually used it in was csz and even then it was sparingly. So STOP. You people drive me crazy lol.
You could use air clone to avoid projectiles when people tried knocking you out of the air with them. I also liked to use it vs Kitanas in the corner if I didn't have meter for ex slide to throw them back from an ass fly. Stopped them from doing that right quick.

Just... throwing that out there lol
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Having a run of being awesome, still strikes me as being more useful than being a complete waste of meter for the entire duration of the games lifespan (EX-Clone so far).

They are actually pretty similar in uselessness at the moment, now that I think about it.
Anytime you put an ice puddle on the screen at all you would be full comboed by someone with an idea of what was going on. I mean ex clone has it's issues but even with it's inconsistencies it has it's uses.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Slow down there buddy lol
This string was godlike. Couldn't really clone cancel, but no one ever expected the overhead, b/c no one used the string. Worked a lot. And you could actually cancel after the 3 and get a weird clone that would catch people.

Also worked really great in the corner to set up the fully charged B2.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
You could use air clone to avoid projectiles when people tried knocking you out of the air with them. I also liked to use it vs Kitanas in the corner if I didn't have meter for ex slide to throw them back from an ass fly. Stopped them from doing that right quick.

Just... throwing that out there lol
If you were at a range where you used air clone to avoid a projectile... why did you jump in the first place? And I forgot about kitana, fair enough there
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
This string was godlike. Couldn't really clone cancel, but no one ever expected the overhead, b/c no one used the string. Worked a lot. And you could actually cancel after the 3 and get a weird clone that would catch people.

Also worked really great in the corner to set up the fully charged B2.
Are you really telling me in tournament you would ever throw that string out over a 22 or 21 string? Like it wasn't horrible but he had better options.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
I'm no sub main, so I won't speak of witch sub is better. I don't even feel there should be a debate about it tbh.

anyway I really liked MK9 subzero: slow movements, space control and corner jailing via clone made him really unique. I feel like MKX sub is just another char. grand master's clone should work, I agree, but I also think that he should move way more slowly and without 50/50s or clone shatter / throw.
 
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STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Are you really telling me in tournament you would ever throw that string out over a 22 or 21 string? Like it wasn't horrible but he had better options.
I would and have. lol

At every tournament I've been to for MK9. MWC, Final Round, MK9 bnb locals. It works. Not every time, mind you.

You aren't gonna dominate brackets with it or anything, but when your opponents are so used to all the strings starting with 2... they aren't used to 13F4. It's just a little wrinkle to use once and a while.

But I still think it's better than some of his MKX strings.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Anytime you put an ice puddle on the screen at all you would be full comboed by someone with an idea of what was going on. I mean ex clone has it's issues but even with it's inconsistencies it has it's uses.
So you definitely didn't bother watching the video. I'm pretty sure creating of a 63% reset is far more useful than EX-Clone has ever been and if remains unchanged, ever will be. Unless you can tell me what EX-Clone does thats even close to approaching this kind of usefulness?
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
So you definitely didn't bother watching the video. I'm pretty sure creating of a 63% reset is far more useful than EX-Clone has ever been and if remains unchanged, ever will be. Unless you can tell me what EX-Clone does thats even close to approaching this kind of usefulness?
Ice puddle resets were a glitch and were patched out. Any reset using ex ice puddle is escapable
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Ice puddle resets were a glitch and were patched out. Any reset using ex ice puddle is escapable
Sure, doesnt change the fact that it had a period of time of being useful, which is MUCH more than can be said about EX-Clone (which is also glitched).
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
I'm no sub main, so I won't speak of witch sub is better. I don't even feel there should be a debate about it tbh.

anyway I really liked MK9 subzero: slow movements, space control and corner jailing via clone made him really unique. I feel like MKX sub is just another char. grand master's clone should work, I agree, but I also think that he should move way more slowly and without 50/50s or clone shatter / throw.
In a game like MKX he'd get overwhelmed very quickly without them. I would agree with you, if that didn't imply that the rest of the cast kept their own 50/50. That and the fact that all his string save for 1 are negative means that a cant jail nearly as effectively in this game, and after playing mk9 a little today, I realized that cool down in this game longer than it was in 9. In MK9 most of what he did was 0 on block, meaning he could do it, and press more buttons after and create stagger pressure. In this game not so much. And since sub cannot really force a trade unless he has meter, clone toss is invaluable as a means to do chip, cause damage and get in, as well as shatter being a valuable tool to also do chip and slow down corner escape throw jumping, now I'd be okay if he lost shatter but gained 2,2 cause imho 2,2 is a way better and more consistent AA, and it's range make it an invaluable poking tool.
 
MKX SZ is better.
I wish everyone would try cryo... he is a mf freight train! Holy ****. Once you get used to not having that clone crutch like the rest of the cast a whole new world will open up. Blocking/interrupting strings is not to hard to do, but when you do, the momentum is all in your hands. I have seen the light and there was not a clone in sight. Im a hardcore SZ player and I am here to tell you all that he does not need buffs. Crossover to the light and stop hiding in the darkness of the clones shadow. PLEASE!