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Question - Vicious which match ups?

omooba

fear the moobs
what match ups do you use vicious and why? personally i use him on none because boss toss doesn't go fullscreen (buff please)
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
All matchups because it's a good and fun variation and I don't have time or interest anymore to perfect my muscle memory between both Vicious and Ruthless combos.

Boss Toss
goes like 80%-85% of the screen. ex version does go 100% of the screen. It doesn't need buffed because Boss Toss is already amazing. It does 16% meterless and eats many projectiles which Ferra Toss goes over.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Boss Toss goes like 80%-85% of the screen. ex version does go 100% of the screen. It doesn't need buffed because Boss Toss is already amazing. It does 16% meterless and eats many projectiles which Ferra Toss goes over.
the overhead toss does the same thing and goes fullscreen. there are very few projectiles if any where i would rather use boss toss cus even though ferra toss goes over some at least you'll get a trade. so what i'm asking is what match up would you rather use boss toss rather than ferra toss.
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
the overhead toss does the same thing and goes fullscreen. there are very few projectiles if any where i would rather use boss toss cus even though ferra toss goes over some at least you'll get a trade. so what i'm asking is what match up would you rather use boss toss rather than ferra toss.
They don't do the same thing. Boss Toss does 16% as opposed to 10% and if the opponent's projectile hits you first, the Overhead Toss doesn't even trade since it loses it's hitbox--which is true of Boss Toss too, but really only low projectiles and a few machinegun types get past Boss Toss.

Objectively the ones that come to mind are Grandmaster, Pyro, and Kitana. Or just any other projectile zoning at about mid-level that you're having trouble with.
 

dennycascade

UPR_ghastem
Realistically, none. When you pick Vicious over Ruthless you're giving up run cancel pressure, insane damage, meterless conversions, chip & meter build, better oki and faster tick throws in exchange for... a slightly improved neutral game and a worse command grab.
Boss Toss would definitely be useful in certain matchups like GM sub, Cybernetic Kano etc but when you look at everything you're sacrificing for such a minor tool in comparison, it's almost never worth it.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Objectively the ones that come to mind are Grandmaster, Pyro, and Kitana
so i tried this and with both pyro and kitana their walk speed and teleport made it so boss toss almost always ate the projectile then whiffed but with gm this mad a huge difference. in this match up it seems like you only have to guess once during his corner set up but again the only real advantage is the 16% soooo yeah idk but thx

Realistically, none. When you pick Vicious over Ruthless you're giving up run cancel pressure, insane damage, meterless conversions, chip & meter build, better oki and faster tick throws in exchange for... a slightly improved neutral game and a worse command grab.
Boss Toss would definitely be useful in certain matchups like GM sub, Cybernetic Kano etc but when you look at everything you're sacrificing for such a minor tool in comparison, it's almost never worth it.
yeah i'm beginning to think he's not worth it. this is why i believe if they buffed it to fullscreen it would literally save the variation. right now so many zoners can just play their game with him cus a blocked ferra means waiting for her to come back and even when hit his run speed is ugh, but eh thx anyways
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
Realistically, none. When you pick Vicious over Ruthless you're giving up run cancel pressure, insane damage, meterless conversions, chip & meter build, better oki and faster tick throws in exchange for... a slightly improved neutral game and a worse command grab.
The one thing to note about that slow command grab is they give good tick throws, which I've learned are really just as good as the fast command grab. Vicous actually has ticks that work with ex Command Grab on either hit or block, so there's no need to set up a situation where the opponent needs to block.

yeah i'm beginning to think he's not worth it. this is why i believe if they buffed it to fullscreen it would literally save the variation.
I don't see Vicious as being a bad variation at all though, so I think instead of buffing it, Ruthless should just be nerfed. We've talked about things like removing ex Ferra Toss and ex Bowl Girl. In REO's KP3 thread, he mentioned the self-inflicted damage from P&G being 6% up from 5%, and a universal nerf to ex Ferra Throw and ex Ferra Toss.

But it's true that
Vicious is mostly irrelevant.

And by the way, if you need a fullscreen counter-zoning move, there is
Bowl Girl. It doesn't lose it's hitbox either, though it's a bit slower. Might need to make a read to hit with it. But mostly it's just about trying to not ever be 100% fullscreen with F/T. They're best from around the range where their longest normals reach.
 
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omooba

fear the moobs
I don't see Vicious as being a bad variation at all though, so I think instead of buffing it, Ruthless should just be nerfed. We've talked about things like removing ex Ferra Toss and ex Bowl Girl. In REO's KP3 thread, he mentioned the self-inflicted damage from P&G being 6% up from 5%, and a universal nerf to ex Ferra Throw and ex Ferra Toss.

But it's true that
Vicious is mostly irrelevant.

And by the way, if you need a fullscreen counter-zoning move, there is
Bowl Girl. It doesn't lose it's hitbox either, though it's a bit slower. Might need to make a read to hit with it. But mostly it's just about trying to not ever be 100% fullscreen with F/T. They're best from around the range where their longest normals reach.
you want to nerf a character that's not top 10? bruh. i can maybe get behind removing ex bowl girl and ex ferra toss but that's entirely unnecessary. and even if they nerfed him, vicious still doesn't do anything much better than the rest. if they made the regular boss toss fullscreen it'll fix the problem literally all variations of ferra/torr have of being zoned out by people with fast projectiles.
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
you want to nerf a character that's not top 10? bruh. i can maybe get behind removing ex bowl girl and ex ferra toss but that's entirely unnecessary. and even if they nerfed him, vicious still doesn't do anything much better than the rest. if they made the regular boss toss fullscreen it'll fix the problem literally all variations of ferra/torr have of being zoned out by people with fast projectiles.
I think Ruthless is top 10.
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
so you think ruthless is better than 7 of these
piercing cuthroat tarkatan demolition alist dragons-fire shirai-ryu ronnin swarm-queen heavy-weapons wrestler hollywood summoner sorcerer shaolin smoke grandmaster
I think so. He's really good. Though I don't entirely agree with like half this list.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Vicious is great against Reptile since Boss toss can knock out acid spit and forceballs in a way that OH toss and the low can't.
Also against Acidic it's pretty decent since if the opponent is relying on acid to chip you, there's a decent chance you might get a Toss trade and nail down some almost 50% for 1 br.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
I kinda have to agree with @dennycascade which is a real shame since up until 8/31 patch Vicious was the top variation and all i played as. That being said Vicious is a far more honest variation with much less gimmicks (like how b121xxPnG rc isn't a true block string and such), meaning your game is a lot more solid and you opponent needs to know the match up before going in more than making guess as to when you're pressure ends in Ruthless.

Vicious plays a slower pace too, something that messes with a lot of people who are used to going full tilt 110%. I almost never use bar in Vicious. Simply harass their entry with Ferra, once there in range of d1/4 poke for advantage into 50/50, 32% combo ending in boss toss that sends them fullscreen. rinse, repeat. Works like a charm.

I Think Vicious and Ruthless have pretty much the same match up numbers. Its really just how I feel that game which one I want to use.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
All matchups because it's a good and fun variation and I don't have time or interest anymore to perfect my muscle memory between both Vicious and Ruthless combos.

Boss Toss
goes like 80%-85% of the screen. ex version does go 100% of the screen. It doesn't need buffed because Boss Toss is already amazing. It does 16% meterless and eats many projectiles which Ferra Toss goes over.
idk if ex does go full screen, it suffers the same problem the other two have in that fullscreen if you're opponent walks back they whiff. I believe, been a while since I've been in that situation.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Definitely bettter than Heavy Weapons, Wrestler, Hollywood, smoke, and grandmaster IMO.
aight well i disagree for the main reason that those characters (except maybe grandmaster) just have more better tools imo and even if you were right that still doesn't put him at top 10
 

MasterBelmont

Aspiring competitive MKXL/MVCI player from Oregon
Aftershock Tremor is another, because you can destroy both of his projectiles with Boss Toss and Bowl Girl, thus eliminating zoning as an option for him.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
can u destroy up rock and instant air rock?
no i dont know what hes talking about, tremor has low air quake, unblockable ground pound, and overhead rock to zone them out. there are really only 5 main match ups I see vicious being functional in, kitana, reptile, liu kang, sektor, and subzero. These are characters where boss toss and ferra tosses in general actually make a consistant difference, and its not like we bop them either its just that they have to show some respect when Ferra is on our back in neutral. The vast majority of the zoning characters in this game have zoning options that dont count as traditional projectiles for ferra to destroy or come from a direction ferra cannot hit. Quan runes/portals, kenshi spirits, jaquis guns, anyone with a ground pound such as bo rai cho, goro, pumped up, boneeshaper etc, shinnoks hellsparks, ermacs choke, tremors aerial low, aliens spit, gunslingers guns, takedas whips, scorpion minions, smokes bombs, cyrax bombs, cyber sub bombs...... ALL cant be dealt with with Ferra tosses, so we end up having to run them down, making vicious useless because we cant anti zone shit
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Tbh I don't think vicious turns any Bad matchup to a better one from ruthless. Imo vicious is just a completly different playstyle it is way more about space control. Though I only use vicious when I'm bored with ruthless so yeah
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
+
just have more better tools
More tools or better tools?? can't be both.

a lot of Jax is gimmicks, but he does have good mix ups. most of the ranged stuff can be negated by jumps, ducks, or ferra. Heavy weapons is heavy gimmicks. Hollywood is alright, but a lot of her things get punished easily by F/T, and for good damage too. idk how you can think smoke is above F/T but whatevs


no i dont know what hes talking about, tremor has low air quake, unblockable ground pound, and overhead rock to zone them out. there are really only 5 main match ups I see vicious being functional in, kitana, reptile, liu kang, sektor, and subzero. These are characters where boss toss and ferra tosses in general actually make a consistant difference, and its not like we bop them either its just that they have to show some respect when Ferra is on our back in neutral. The vast majority of the zoning characters in this game have zoning options that dont count as traditional projectiles for ferra to destroy or come from a direction ferra cannot hit. Quan runes/portals, kenshi spirits, jaquis guns, anyone with a ground pound such as bo rai cho, goro, pumped up, boneeshaper etc, shinnoks hellsparks, ermacs choke, tremors aerial low, aliens spit, gunslingers guns, takedas whips, scorpion minions, smokes bombs, cyrax bombs, cyber sub bombs...... ALL cant be dealt with with Ferra tosses, so we end up having to run them down, making vicious useless because we cant anti zone shit
I believe he's talking about the regular rock throws, which forces him to use the other options which are easier to get around.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Vicious plays a slower pace too, something that messes with a lot of people who are used to going full tilt 110%. I almost never use bar in Vicious. Simply harass their entry with Ferra, once there in range of d1/4 poke for advantage into 50/50, 32% combo ending in boss toss that sends them fullscreen. rinse, repeat. Works like a charm.

I Think Vicious and Ruthless have pretty much the same match up numbers. Its really just how I feel that game which one I want to use.
I feel like ruthless is the powerhouse variation, always in your face and super strong offensive game while vicious is the true tank of this Game. Boss toss may not absorb more projectiles than oh toss but fuck this move is a good spacing tool. In mid range you have to Block it because it also aa really good at that range. But his offensive game relies way more on his b121 "Vortex" than ruthless.