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Guide - Venomous Venomous General Discussion Thread

f22 and b1 combos are easy confirms to you?

Jealous AF.
Hahaha idk man I come from a guilty gear background, so I'm pretty competent with input precision and long command strings. Especially when I have a few options pre loaded into my head from practice. I play Johnny and a.b.a. in.gg so big confirms and managing more than just super meter come with the turf and are essential. I'm no good at coming up with original tech tho, only copying it from others. So that's what I'm looking for, just some strings to "borrow" haha.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Hahaha idk man I come from a guilty gear background, so I'm pretty competent with input precision and long command strings. Especially when I have a few options pre loaded into my head from practice. I'm no good at coming up with original tech tho, only copying it from others. So that's what I'm looking for, just some strings to "borrow" haha.
I spent like 2 weeks just getting b1 wcs to 95% consistency in the lab. I hate you so much!

But hopefully zoidberg will be able to help you with venemous when he's comes back.
 
I spent like 2 weeks just getting b1 wcs to 95% consistency in the lab. I hate you so much!

But hopefully zoidberg will be able to help you with venemous when he's comes back.
Hahaha I feel you, I spent weeks in the lab trying to get dust loops and frc's down for gg. Sometimes it's painful lol for sure but when you can mindlessly crank out shit that used to be like a 1/5 thing it's a glorious feeling.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Well before I got into playing her sq variation I thought maybe she had some unique tech, but after putting some time into both, I suppose there really isn't much super unique shit that you would need to do.. Just use the omni as much as possible. I would like to know some legit optomized confirms everyone uses tho. Sq is so brain dead with her easy ass confirms to 30+% with no meter mid screen, I can't just stick with that one variation or I'll get sloppy.
So good confirms?
Or maybe not necessarily high initial percent combos, but ones that will stack some serious poison?
Im not sure what you been by good confirms tbh, the only "confirms" I can think of is whenever f22, f11, or b1 hit you should always cancel it into the full bug spray for the damage+hit advantage.

As far as poison stacking combos go I use:

Puddle f22 ovi
F34 d4 ovi
11b2 run d4 ovi
212 EX Puddle njp f34 d4 ovi

The corner ones are mainly the same but this one is especially nasty:
212 EX Puddle njp d3 d3 d3 ovi

If you want to keep up pressure then you want to go with restand combos(I stole some of these from KH Mattix for the record):
F34 1 f44 df1
11b2 run f44 df1
212 EX Puddle njp f44 df1

Corner: 212 EX Puddle njp f44 f44 df1
11b2 1 f44 df1
F34 d1 F34 11 df1
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
So after playing with her at Texas Showdown this weekend I think this will be my main variation. For the record I think Swarm Queen is undoubtedly a better variation, and Venomous will get worse as people learn how to fight her, but I think venomous is very viable. Main reason being is that venomous has insane footsies because with around 4-5 pokes you can take up to 25% of someones life bar. Here is what I know/learned:

1. She has some real weaknesses. She is overall incredibly unsafe. Bug Spray can be punished by every character, and with how much hit advantage d1 has it means you have to hold a mixup after they do it. At max range most characters can still punish, but it isnt as bad because most characters cant pressure you afterwords(although fast advancing specials can punish). After an F22 you can finish the string but you can punish that as well with most characters or at least get pressure going. You can cancel the f22 into puddle but eventually people will learn to just stuff that on reaction. You can also armor through anything into bug spray except f112. Her meterless damage also isnt nearly as good.

2. She makes up for those weaknesses with her strengths. She has some of the best footsies in the game because of the range on her normals mixed with the fact that they all do damage over time. Her meter building is INSANE. I dont think I ever got in a situation where I didnt have enough meter for a breaker. Her pressure is still very good as any time she bug sprays on hit it allows for pressure(going to hit the lab to find out exactly how much is guaranteed). She also has ridiculous corner pressure in this variation as she has a 50/50 that increases in damage as the opponent guesses wrong. She also can punish while leaving the opponent at a restand, turning the tide of a match instantly.

Here are some misc. things I found over the weekend:

  • If you hit your opponent with a d3 you can immediately d4 afterwards. Not sure if it works the other way around or if it is like a true blockstring or something(probably isn't). Will have to test.
  • After a far spray hits she basically gets a 3 way guessing game, because they have to guess between b1, f2 and throw(all of which will lead to venom damage and two of which leads to more pressure). Need to test how much opponents have to respect it though.
  • Bug Spray beats armor at a certain point, my best guess is after half a second of its duration. It beats armored wakeups a lot of the time.
  • One great string Mattix used this weekend was 113. It ends in overhead and leaves you neutral. Can usually run up and do it after a spray connects.
  • People still block the puddle after f22 puddle. Abuse that shit.
Thats it for now. I'll be labbing this variation from now on, so stay tuned.
 
Awesome stuff @Zoidberg747, thank you for the info!

I'm pretty new to the character so forgive my dumb questions:

1) What's the best string to do after b1?
2) After I restand people with df1, I'm usually only in range for another f22 so they always know what to block. Should I be running after df1? I feel like I don't have time to do that.
3) I'm not sure what's the best punish with her, I usually do f11, df1 or something like that. I don't know any really good punishing combos with her.

That's it, if you have any matches that I can watch to learn that would awesome as well :)

Thanks again!
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Awesome stuff @Zoidberg747, thank you for the info!

I'm pretty new to the character so forgive my dumb questions:

1) What's the best string to do after b1?
2) After I restand people with df1, I'm usually only in range for another f22 so they always know what to block. Should I be running after df1? I feel like I don't have time to do that.
3) I'm not sure what's the best punish with her, I usually do f11, df1 or something like that. I don't know any really good punishing combos with her.

That's it, if you have any matches that I can watch to learn that would awesome as well :)

Thanks again!
Check out the tournament footage thread as I posted mine and Mattix's matches from Texas Showdown

1. If it hits just cancel into spray, you could also do b12 air throw if you want a hard knockdown
2. They can poke you if you try and run but most people dont, especially if they dont know the MU. I try and run and go into f22 or b1 spray or a throw to mix it up.
3. Her fastest punishers are 2 and 1. So one punishing combo you can do is 212 puddle f2 spray, or you could do 11b2 run f44 spray. If you want venom damage you could do 212 EX Puddle njp f34 d4 ovi or 11b2 run d4 ovi. If you can punish something with f11 I usually just do f11 into spray
 

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Information .
I find that venomous is the only variation were you opponent has a better chance of beating you by playing a lame turtle style because this forces you to go in with your limited safe strings. By just blocking they limit your options, and if you take risks they can option select punish you. If poison stacked on blocked stingers then it would be a different story.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I find that venomous is the only variation were you opponent has a better chance of beating you by playing a lame turtle style because this forces you to go in with your limited safe strings. By just blocking they limit your options, and if you take risks they can option select punish you. If poison stacked on blocked stingers then it would be a different story.
You just have to open them up better then. Throws do wonder for this. She also has some safe strings like f112 and 113 that she can use. I agree it is much harder but it is still possible.
 

KNX

Noob
You just have to open them up better then. Throws do wonder for this. She also has some safe strings like f112 and 113 that she can use. I agree it is much harder but it is still possible.
113 can be armored thtrough between the 1 and the 3.

I suppose it's OK to use for now whilst this isn't common knowledge, but later down the line players will be punishing you for it.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
113 can be armored thtrough between the 1 and the 3.

I suppose it's OK to use for now whilst this isn't common knowledge, but later down the line players will be punishing you for it.
Huh, didnt know that, thanks.
 
most of her strings can be armored through. Am I wrong to assume that SQ will end up being just as vulnerable when people learn the match up? Even with WCs, very little is safe.

Also after looking at most of the bnbs here, the punish damage doesn't seem that different between the 2 versions, especially meterless.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Alright I went to the lab and found out some of my combos don't work lol. Guess I got too excited. Here are the ones that do work though. These all are without venom stacks(her pokes make her next combos do more DoT):

Venom Stacking:
F34 d3 d4 ovi- 21% with about 5% DoT
11B2 d4 ovi- 15% with about 4% DoT
212 puddle d4 ovi- 22% with about 4% DoT
F44 F44 run d4 ovi 30%
212 EX Puddle njp f44 run d4 ovi 34% with about 6% DoT

Corner: 212 EX Puddle njp d3 d3 d4 ovi- I only landed this once in like an hour but maybe someone with decent execution could get it lol. Take out one of the d3s and you get 30% with about 6% DoT
F44 F44 F44 d4 ovi- 38% with about 4% DoT

Restand Combos:
F34 1 f44 df1- 21%
F44 F44 df1- 26%
11b2 1 Df1- 13%
212 EX Puddle njp f44 df1- 30%

Corner-
f44 f44 f44 df1- 38%(hold the spray all the way)
11b2 1 f44 df1- 25%(same as above)
212 EX Puddle njp f44 df1- 35%

Now on to tech:

I experimented with poison stacks and here is what I have found:
1: D4 gives more poison than d3 for some reason
2: After every D4 all your combos will start to do more damage. For example, if you do f44 df1 with no venom it does 21%. If you do it after a d4 it does 22%. If you do it after two d4s it does 23%, etc.

I also experimented with the hit advantage after spray:
1. It doesnt seem to give more or less frame advantage if you hold out the bug spray on restands, contrary to what the frame data says. So you can restand them with df1 and if you are in the corner you basically get a free 50/50, while midscreen you can run up to them and do f11 or other pressure.
I did find though that at midscreen if you dont hold the spray and just do one hit to restand and then run in that it was much harder to armor out of the following pressure.

Lastly I found a possible OS with f11 df1 ff. Basically if the f11 hits you can hold down the f of df1 and the spray will come out. If the first hit of f1 is blocked you can quickly input ff to cancel the spray and be neutral. I am not sure if this is like the OS people keep talking about or not but it should be useful.
 
The Bug Blast restand is really interesting
The only issue is like exactly what can i really do after that
it seems the only thing you can do is go low or overhead
is that really all you can do at the moment??!
You throw mix up, back dash and bait something for a full whiff punish, you can NJ and bait something. The mix up potential is strong. Sometimes I just immediately do another bug spray to catch armor.
 

IAmSimba

Noob
You throw mix up, back dash and bait something for a full whiff punish, you can NJ and bait something. The mix up potential is strong. Sometimes I just immediately do another bug spray to catch armor.
IS there a point when holding it is beneficial?
 


Here are a couple of corner combos I haven't seen on here yet. A meterless one that I haven't seen on here yet is 212>DB1>D3>Run>D4>DB4
 
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IS there a point when holding it is beneficial?
Regular Bug Spray is always unsafe (on block) I believe, so I always hold it no matter what. On hit it's unbreakable damage, on block its a lot of chip and 75% of a meter so if I do get punished its pretty likely that I have a breaker anyway. Doing a jumpin into F112 and Extended regular spray gives you about 95% of a bar. I never see a reason not to hold it.
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
Alright I went to the lab and found out some of my combos don't work lol. Guess I got too excited. Here are the ones that do work though. These all are without venom stacks(her pokes make her next combos do more DoT):

Venom Stacking:
F34 d3 d4 ovi- 21% with about 5% DoT
11B2 d4 ovi- 15% with about 4% DoT
212 puddle d4 ovi- 22% with about 4% DoT
F44 F44 run d4 ovi 30%
212 EX Puddle njp f44 run d4 ovi 34% with about 6% DoT
For the first couple why not do them this way for more damage:
F34, d1, F34, d1, F44 ovi (Something like 30%, and I have no idea how much DoT)
11B2, d1, F34, d1, F44 ovi (Again, something like 30%, and no idea about the DoT)

Seems like you are sacrificing immediate damage for DoT but I could be wrong. I've been maining Dvorah this whole time but haven't been on the forums.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
For the first couple why not do them this way for more damage:
F34, d1, F34, d1, F44 ovi (Something like 30%, and I have no idea how much DoT)
11B2, d1, F34, d1, F44 ovi (Again, something like 30%, and no idea about the DoT)

Seems like you are sacrificing immediate damage for DoT but I could be wrong. I've been maining Dvorah this whole time but haven't been on the forums.
Because adding the d3 or d4 increases the damage over time, which makes up for the lost damage and also tends to freak your opponent out. PLus if you got a few pokes in before the DoT will increase to the point where the overall damage will be better than the immediate damage on some of those combos.

Although to be honest most matches I do restand combos because I would rather not deal with wakeups(even though bug spray eats like all of their armor lol)
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
Because adding the d3 or d4 increases the damage over time, which makes up for the lost damage and also tends to freak your opponent out. PLus if you got a few pokes in before the DoT will increase to the point where the overall damage will be better than the immediate damage on some of those combos.

Although to be honest most matches I do restand combos because I would rather not deal with wakeups(even though bug spray eats like all of their armor lol)
Again, I think I'm missing something. Sorry.

The combo you posted does 21% plus 5% Damage over time, that's a 26% combo yeah? The one I posted does 30% plus some DoT. Why do a 26% combo over a 30% combo? Also, I'm not at home to test, but I'm pretty sure the one I posted does 30% or 31%.

What am I missing?
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Again, I think I'm missing something. Sorry.

The combo you posted does 21% plus 5% Damage over time, that's a 26% combo yeah? The one I posted does 30% plus some DoT. Why do a 26% combo over a 30% combo? Also, I'm not at home to test, but I'm pretty sure the one I posted does 30% or 31%.

What am I missing?
You have a point but you also have to consider that the combos I posted were with no venom stacks. If you get 1 or 2 pokes in and then get the combo it will do more damage, although not sure it would get up to 30%. Your combos are good though.

Like I said before I rarely go for anything that doesnt end in a restand but I can see why you would want more immediate damage, especially if they would kill.
 
Honestly i really feel like there is some misguided information here.

The poison stacks only have a certain time window to be added up, after that time period, the Dot stack restarts. There is no reason to do a weaker combo ever, under any circumstances unless you are going for a restand or HKD.

D3 and D4 or any stinger limb for that matter dont "increase combo damage" per say, what is happening is that the system is adding any exsisting dot ticks that occur mid combo to the combo counter albeit a very confusing system is in play. The timing is strange but go test this, and it will start becoming clear:

D3, 112 - if you do the 112 as fast as possible after the d3, you will only get 10 percent. if you pause for too long but still within the 5 second tick intervals you will still only get 10 percent. If you wait just the right amount of the time, the combo counter will display 11 percent after the 112.

Its also why combos that have more stinger normals in close proximity to each other tend to yield better results since the DOT damage is being applied within the small window before the stacking restarts. Go into the lab and do a basic:

212, d3, d3, d3, d3, d4xxdb4

Simply depending on your timing of the D3s, the dot will either tick for 3.82% or 4.16%

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A few things
meterless punish for raw damage

f44(212), d3, d3, d3, d3, d4xxdb4 = 40%(36%) corner only

best conversion off f43 for damage

f43, d3, f43, d3, d4xxdb4 = 32%

corner restand - dont waste meter for 2 percent damage

212, f33, f33xxdf1 = 33% plus restand