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Question Vanilla Sub-Zero: How good was he?

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Hes not the worst character in the game, but hes down there around bottom 10 or so.

As for what made him so powerful that he deserved to be beat to death with a nerf hammer? In a word, nothing. Pretty much every nerf that happened to him was entirely uncalled for and unnessecary. There is a big difference between something actually being to powerful and something just appearing that way at first because the game is new. That's what happened with Subzero.
When MK9 first came out obviously as we all know Tom Brady was one of a bunch of testers from the community NRS had gathered to take a look at the game before its final form was released to the public. So he had a slight head start on the rest of the community as far as character tech goes. Not as huge amount of a head start as people would like to believe, but a head start nonetheless. Subzero was Tom Bradys main character. He won the first major tournament for MK9 in late April of 2011 which was Powerup convincingly with a lot of good footsies, reads and corner ice clone traps that no one had yet seen. Almost immediately the cries began on the forum and TYM was deluged in a river of tears from people who had only been playing the game for about two weeks since it came out.

Tom made the character look much better then he really was.(This is something Tom never stopped doing despite all the nerfs as there was never a time when he wasn't the top Subzero player out there) So really its all Tom Bradys fault Subzero got nerfed to death( I kid I kid lol)

The fact is that all these things that seemed so powerful,(clone traps,22, GF reset, higher damage, more knockdown advantage after slide etc etc) were later shown to be just average tools as the rest of the game became more developed. But by the time the game was more developed it was to late, most of that stuff was gone and the ice clones use was severely curtailed because NRS handed out armor moves to the rest of the cast like it was candy on Halloween.

So in hindsight really nothing he had was really that great even at the beginning. He was better for sure than he turned out later. Had he been left untouched he still wouldn't be a top 5 character, or maybe even not top 10. He still would have been slaughtered in all the same matchups he gets murdered in now. Kung Lao still would have killed him, Kitana, Cyrax etc etc. Its a classic case of something seeming to good at first and then finding out later it really wasn't that great at all.
R.I.P. Subby.
lets not pretend pre patch subzero wasnt good, he had resets, he absolutely murdered cage and jax, kitana/kabal were MUCH easier to get to because dash cancelled to dash was a ridiculously fast way to close the distance
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
lets not pretend pre patch subzero wasnt good, he had resets, he absolutely murdered cage and jax, kitana/kabal were MUCH easier to get to because dash cancelled to dash was a ridiculously fast way to close the distance
He was better than he is now, but nowhere near top, not even close. His reset was escapeable by anyone with an armor move and a bar of meter to burn. Kitana and Kabal were never any better. Kitana did absolutely stupid damage pre patch, if you even got touched by her you lost half your lifebar in one combo. Kabal had a freakin block infinite, in addition to all the other stupidity he had, and still has. Cage? So what, Subzero still does well in that matchup now. Jax? ehh maybe, no one really played Jax except Tyrant at that time. It wasn't until Jax got some nice buffs that you began seeing him more. By then Sub was dead.
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
He was better than he is now, but nowhere near top, not even close. His reset was escapeable by anyone with an armor move and a bar of meter to burn. Kitana and Kabal were never any better. Kitana did absolutely stupid damage pre patch, if you even got touched by her you lost half your lifebar in one combo. Kabal had a freakin block infinite, in addition to all the other stupidity he had, and still has. Cage? So what, Subzero still does well in that matchup now. Jax? ehh maybe, no one really played Jax except Tyrant at that time. It wasn't until Jax got some nice buffs that you began seeing him more. By then Sub was dead.

So....the key to subzero staying ok in MK10 (assuming he's in it) is to keep tom away from it? LOLz.

oh, and just so that it's not painfully obvious, this is the same shit happening now with all the cries for nerfs in the current NRS game.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
vanilla was the first 2-3 months, noone would allow any infinites raiden/kabal style

kenshi was not in vanilla

if this community wasnt so inexperienced with fighting games we would not have allowed resets


So Sub-Zero was top 3 with Qwark's rules lol
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
top 5, top 3 was pushing it.

No. Hella infinites, block infinites, insane tech like Cyrax old command grab that lead to full combo and almost couldn't be broke.

I actually played vanilla Sub vs. Kitty in the summer of 2012 with Tom. You're still getting zoned out and her damage was better too.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
No. Hella infinites, block infinites, insane tech like Cyrax old command grab that lead to full combo and almost couldn't be broke.

I actually played vanilla Sub vs. Kitty in the summer of 2012 with Tom. You're still getting zoned out and her damage was better too.
yes, but take out all the dumb shit like that, if we had the raw vanilla game right now with our current banning rules and such, subzero would definitely be top 5
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
top 5, top 3 was pushing it.
Keep going.

At minimum. Kung Lao, Raiden, Kitana, Kabal, and Cyrax were vastly better. Then you have characters like Reptile, and Ermac and Smoke who did much more damage and had better tools at first who could arguably be around where Subzero was. Sub is probably in the top 10 somewhere with those guys, but top 5? No way.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Infinites were never banned in MK9. They were patched out by NRS, but they were legal while they existed.
they should have been though, i do recall smoke resets, cyrax resets and such being discussed as banable content
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
they should have been though, i do recall smoke resets, cyrax resets and such being discussed as banable content
Discussed yes. But as someone who was a main part of the tournament staff on the east coast at the time I can tell you that such bans were never really seriously considered. To hard to monitor.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
they should have been though, i do recall smoke resets, cyrax resets and such being discussed as banable content

And the talk went no where. Online Tony and Michaelangelo were using Kabal block infinites in tournament all the time. The dumb shit was part of vanilla.

I doubt he'd have been top 5 even under Qwark rules. His bad MU wouldn't be much better. Kitana and others might be 4-6 instead of 3-7 I guess. Yay.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
And the talk went no where. Online Tony and Michaelangelo were using Kabal block infinites in tournament all the time. The dumb shit was part of vanilla.

I doubt he'd have been top 5 even under Qwark rules. His bad MU wouldn't be much better. Kitana and others might be 4-6 instead of 3-7 I guess. Yay.
i want NRS game rules that moderate infinites and such be labelled Qwark rules from now on.

good points.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Let's talk about vanilla Freddy. Hella damage, safe claws and projectile immunity. M2Dave's dream. Kitana vs. vanilla Freddy was like 2-8.
Or remember that stupid shit with reptiles EX forceballs. I forget exactly how it worked but if you blocked one, the hitbox would be invisible and still active so you had to remember where it was or youd get launched. God that game was so buggy at first.
 
Discussed yes. But as someone who was a main part of the tournament staff on the east coast at the time I can tell you that such bans were never really seriously considered. To hard to monitor.


Hard to monitor?
There's always, like, half a dozen staff at EC tournies; Just call one over when the one Cyrax match comes up.

Anyway, hopefully we can actually put some bans in place, if need be, when MK10 rolls around without having to go, "No, lets just see what happens."
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
Let's talk about vanilla Freddy. Hella damage, safe claws and projectile immunity. M2Dave's dream. Kitana vs. vanilla Freddy was like 2-8.

lol, yah a character where you literally can't do anything against, unless you had a teleport. Or were Kabal.