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V3 Sheeva needs a buff

I don’t understand this character’s design. She lives or dies based on what happens at point blank range but all of her pokes are trash on block and whiff, completely giving up her turn. You might say well that’s because she gets all that hit advantage on hit, so it’s a balanced trade off, but Joker and Frost both get the same hit advantage without the risk. More importantly, Joker and Frost have multiple fast and safe sweep range tools that have a chance of keeping the opponent back footed where Sheeva only has a 15f b4 that puts her in the opponent’s face at -5 on block, or something even slower, so the opponent has nothing to fear at sweep distance. How does Sheeva condition her opp to block so that she can get in and start her game? Her death march on block also doesn’t work appropriately because of the 5f buffer window that the opponent has on block to buffer a poke. So no matter how skilled your opponent is they get a frame perfect counter. If you’ve conditioned your opponent to block Death March it should be more rewarding. In general Sheeva is supposed to be a monster at point blank range, yet while her mid range advancing moves are stubby, slow on startup and recovery as you would expect, her close game does not make up for it. Look at Sonya for contrast. She has all the mix potential that Sheeva has, is stubby like Sheeva, but has moves that cover sweep distance lightning quick which the opp has to respect whereas Sheeva puts out a slow stubby move and prays she doesn’t get countered or whiff punished. I just don’t understand the thought process for Sheeva’s design.
  1. Make d1 6f with a 14f recovery instead of 18f
  2. Make Death March +6 on block
  3. Make b1 10f on start-up
  4. Make f4 8f on start-up (this should be the fastest mid in the game, why not? It seems to have the absolute least range of any move in the game)
  5. Cancelling Death March could be easier on the hand. Instead of back+back, make it like Erron’s slide cancel or Kabal’s dash cancel which don’t give your thumb arthritis. (Erron’s is back+AMP, Kabal’s is back+block button; much less joint pain).
TL;DR V3 Sheeva is stubby & slow, having to gamble her lifebar to get in, so she should be an absolute monster once she’s in. If nothing else IMO buff her pokes.

Edit: let me know if I’m doing something wrong but it really seems like opp. can freely just bait a whiff by walking in & out or jumping around sweep range, or just take their turn once you’re afraid to press anything. And if you get into a poking war Sheeva loses. Am I making sense here?
 
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Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
TL;DR V3 Sheeva is slow, stubby and isn’t very good at getting in
The fuck you mean by that? Sheeva stomp is one of the absolute best fuck neutral tools in the game. She needs none of those buffs, Maybe the second one but even without it she's still top tier.
 
The fuck you mean by that? Sheeva stomp is one of the absolute best fuck neutral tools in the game. She needs none of those buffs, Maybe the second one but even without it she's still top tier.
Lol nah. Stomp is almost irrelevant against a decent player. Keep in mind that I’m talking about V3, so there is just regular stomp and delay stomp, no tremor mixup. The opp. has all day to react and just walk in either direction, and that covers both V3 reg and delay, and there goes a third of my life bar. Stomp can’t be used to punish either unless opp. has committed to a move w a super long animation. Otherwise it’s a read that you’re risking a huge chunk of life on.
 

SoapBar

My pussy, my rules
The fuck you mean by that? Sheeva stomp is one of the absolute best fuck neutral tools in the game. She needs none of those buffs, Maybe the second one but even without it she's still top tier.
Without the tremor mixup or directional mindgames of V1, a decent player can and will punish stomp almost every time.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
In my opinion, she needs is the following:

  • A TRUE command throw that cannot be blocked or avoided by standing. It should be just like Goro's from MKX
  • A mid range advancing mid to close the gap that can also be special canceled.
  • A string that can be used for a tick throw that can also be special canceled into her anti-air or another move that can stop jump away attempts. Of course both scenarios would leave you open to being punished but it's still a very strong mix up game.
That's pretty much all I would need. I know others may not agree, but this would help me to be more effective with her.

Right now, there is little reason to use her V3, which sadly, is the one I use. I want real command grabs, not command lows.
 
@mastermalone You mean like the mid command grab V1 kollector has? I wouldn’t complain if NRS gave her one but the low/high mix is more interesting imo.

She does have an advancing mid that’s special cancellable, her f1. The problem is it’s 16f and gets countered by faster moves. Her f1, b4, f3 & b3 are the only sweep options and none are a real threat unless opponent is staying motionless.
 
Okay so I labbed some things that might help. If the opponent is jumpy you can anti-air with: s1xxdash forward, 21xxdb4 (18% meterless, 26-31% amp’d). You have to cancel the stand 1 into dash or the 21 won’t reach. Or if you read your opponent will jump, Sheeva actually has an above average air-to-air w/ j2. It’s 6f and has good range.

Actually ngl this might reverse my opinion about her poking game. On block you can cancel d1 into backdash and immediately b122 or b2. Or for d3 xxbackdash and quickly b3. Her d4 has enough pushback to make canceling into db4 semi-safe if the opponent isn’t ready for it, depending on MU, but better is d4xxbackdash w/ an immediate b3 for the krushing blow.

And for her Death March on block, yeah you aren’t guaranteed to beat your opp’s d1 but you can hold back and whiff punish w/ b122 or throw.

All this might change my opinion on V3 Sheeva, but maybe she’s still fucked idk
 
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mastermalone

Use only logic, please
@mastermalone You mean like the mid command grab V1 kollector has? I wouldn’t complain if NRS gave her one but the low/high mix is more interesting imo.

She does have an advancing mid that’s special cancellable, her f1. The problem is it’s 16f and gets countered by faster moves. Her f1, b4, f3 & b3 are the only sweep options and none are a real threat unless opponent is staying motionless.
Yes, that's the mid grab type that she needs. Her F1 is just too slow, though.
 

Wigy

There it is...
F1 is such a risk in the neutral. Slow and second hit is also slow. If youre at the range where its range is useful a backdash or jump and youre in trouble.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
Sheeva v3 is tough af to master, but folks who can do it (not me) are fire. I'm not convinced she needs a big buff, tho maybe a couple small tweaks. A few random (non-expert) thoughts...
She lives or dies based on what happens at point blank range but all of her pokes are trash on block and whiff, completely giving up her turn. You might say well that’s because she gets all that hit advantage on hit, so it’s a balanced trade off, but Joker and Frost both get the same hit advantage without the risk.
There's nothing unusual about the block adv on her pokes; actually a little better than average, so not sure what you're talking about there. The recoveries are long, but basically the same as Joker (if that's the comparison you want to use). The problem is just short range, so yeah, she can get shimmied easily. Might be her biggest weakness in a game with such good spacing characters; just something you have to deal with playing as her.

It doesn't sound like much, but one thing Sheeva's pokes do have is quite high cancel adv on block. So she can enforce her mix off a blocked d3 or d4 and the oppo has to hold it. You can get blown up if they defend correctly, but if you're playing someone who mashes counterpokes like crazy, it's a great way to punish that.
More importantly, Joker and Frost have multiple fast and safe sweep range tools that have a chance of keeping the opponent back footed where Sheeva only has a 15f b4 that puts her in the opponent’s face at -5 on block, or something even slower, so the opponent has nothing to fear at sweep distance. How does Sheeva condition her opp to block so that she can get in and start her game?
This is apples and oranges; Joker and Frost are totally different character designs. Sheeva is a brawler, not a footsies character. Joker and Frost are about nothing but spacing (rounded out with set play and zoning).

Yeah, Sheeva's neutral game is pretty weak. Imo, you need to be good at wavedashing to be competitive with her. However, I think her f1 is better than most give it credit for. She's also got one of the very best fireballs in the game. Good startup, good travel speed, amped hits mid for great damage and resets neutral on block. Very difficult to visually distinguish if she's amping it, so as long as you have a bar, your oppo has to be thinking about blocking. You should be shimmying and throwing fireballs all the time to condition.
Her death march on block also doesn’t work appropriately because of the 5f buffer window that the opponent has on block to buffer a poke. So no matter how skilled your opponent is they get a frame perfect counter. If you’ve conditioned your opponent to block Death March it should be more rewarding.
I hear ya. It's complete crap that they gave the defender a buffer on block, but didn't add a buffer for the attacker so you can actually enforce your plus frames. I'd rather see them add that than buff her plus frames.
Look at Sonya for contrast. She has all the mix potential that Sheeva has, is stubby like Sheeva, but has moves that cover sweep distance lightning quick which the opp has to respect whereas Sheeva puts out a slow stubby move and prays she doesn’t get countered or whiff punished.
Not sure how much I buy this. Sonya does have some faster spacing options up close, but she has only one scary OH that actually matters, off a stubby high starter (b12), and that's her only launcher. Sheeva v3 can literally mix you off any touch and can launch off any hit-confirm. She can also mix cancels with an OH (that gets a KB) that frametraps off certain strings and is completely safe. Sonya might be a bit more well-rounded, but Sheev is definitely the mix queen.
  1. Make d1 6f with a 14f recovery instead of 18f
  2. Make Death March +6 on block
  3. Make b1 10f on start-up
  4. Make f4 8f on start-up (this should be the fastest mid in the game, why not? It seems to have the absolute least range of any move in the game)
  5. Cancelling Death March could be easier on the hand. Instead of back+back, make it like Erron’s slide cancel or Kabal’s dash cancel which don’t give your thumb arthritis. (Erron’s is back+AMP, Kabal’s is back+block button; much less joint pain).
Sheeva's speed is fine. Her big limitation is footsies range, and faster startups aren't going to change that. If anything I think her damage maybe should be a bit higher (think Baraka and Noob) to reflect the risks she has to take to get in and mix.

Totally agree with #5 tho. Tbh the cancel input is the thing I dislike the most about v3 and why I probably won't play it long-term. It's an awful input. Sindel has a back+block cancel off a held button, so I know it's not an input buffer thing. Really sucks. :mad:
 
@Obly This is a really good analysis. The only thing I’d push back on is I think making her poke data, or one or both of her mids faster will at least make the opponent think harder about how they’ll take their turn because Sheeva’s faster poke/mid can kounter some options and retake her turn (as it is they can comfortably pick any random option bc they know they’re very unlikely to get kountered). Or if not the pokes/mids then buff her s3 to have better startup/range/recovery. She needs something. Otherwise I think you have it spot on. Watching WavyKiing on YouTube it does look like wavedashing is essential to getting in.
 
F443 special cancelable

Any thoughts? Would mean her stubby buttons are a lot scarier for all three variations, especially v1.
Yeah I think that would be significant.

As far as what you and @Obly were saying about her damage I agree, and probably the most sensible way to buff it is to give her a couple more useful krushing blows. Also make the Death March kb unblockable since it takes about 5000 frames to activate.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
The only thing I’d push back on is I think making her poke data, or one or both of her mids faster will at least make the opponent think harder about how they’ll take their turn because Sheeva’s faster poke/mid can kounter some options and retake her turn (as it is they can comfortably pick any random option bc they know they’re very unlikely to get kountered). Or if not the pokes/mids then buff her s3 to have better startup/range/recovery. She needs something.
I would've been ok with Sheeva having a 6-frame d1 (I think it fits her archetype), but if forced to choose between that or a 14-frame hit adv, I'd take the hit adv. Her d3 and d4 are already pretty fast; again it's the range that limits her.

As for mids, I don't think hers are bad but she does feel unfairly limited in footsies range. But honestly I bet it's because the devs thought her stomp would be scarier than it turned out to be. I wouldn't mind seeing her f1 go to 14 frames, but I'd rather see them make the stomp just a bit faster. Got to be careful not to break it, but she should at least easily counterzone on reaction (Noob's teleport is way too slow in the same way).

If they were to change her f443 in any way, my preference would be to make it less minus on block. She's supposed to be a pressure character, but has no stagger game off her fastest, in-your-face mid--that's crap. Jacqui gets to stagger for days, but not Sheeva? Similarly, I wouldn't change the startup/recovery on her s3 or s4, but give the queen a few plus frames on block, so she has something outside of death march. v3 isn't all that bad off, but v2 needs more pressure options.

As for her damage, I was thinking her base combo damage should be a bit higher or have less scaling. Like, she should easily get 30% off a 1-bar BnB. Again tho, I bet they thought stomp would be netting her a lot more damage than it actually does. Making it just a bit faster would be the best overall quality of life buff she could get.
 

xKMMx

Noob
IM about 200 games in with her and now that I have a good feel for her I have been having an insane amount of fun. But I do feel like trying to low poke w her against anyone is pointless. Her pokes do jail but you more than likely will just get whiff punished like the Op said.
The thing ive noticed could use a change is her regular GRAB. That shit is impossible to land off a successful D1. It literally whiffs most of the time.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
The thing ive noticed could use a change is her regular GRAB. That shit is impossible to land off a successful D1. It literally whiffs most of the time.
I'm fairly sure the problem is that you can't throw someone who's in hit stun. The hit adv on her d1 is just a little too long to go right for a throw. Try pausing for a few moments before tapping throw and you should have more success.
 
IM about 200 games in with her and now that I have a good feel for her I have been having an insane amount of fun. But I do feel like trying to low poke w her against anyone is pointless. Her pokes do jail but you more than likely will just get whiff punished like the Op said.
The thing ive noticed could use a change is her regular GRAB. That shit is impossible to land off a successful D1. It literally whiffs most of the time.
def not pointless bro ... her d3 is -4 on block and +15 on hit you can jail into various mixups if you land ... i have atleast a 1000 games in with her