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Using Raiden’s BF1 after strings and normals (and some S3 stuff)

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
As of the newest patch, BF1AMP received a buff frame-data-wise, and it is possible to be slightly plus depending on the distance. It is now also possible to delay the AMP of BF1 slightly. I took this into training mode and tried to see how it would affect opponents when cancelling some commonly used normals and strings with this, and see if there are any good situations that Raiden winds up in.

Methodology:
I tested this on Jade (a small female hurt box character).
To simulate crouch blocking, I set the AI block mode to “Stance hold” and stance mode to “duck”
To simulate stand blocking (since the first hit of BF1 will whiff on crouch blocking no matter the distance), I set the AI block mode to “ALL” and stance mode to “stand” so the AI would block the first hit of the BF1 projectile as well as certain strings and normals that start high and would whiff on crouch blocking.
All tests were done at midscreen, at default distance between Raiden and opponent
NOTE: I’m no training mode wizard so I’m listing my methodology here so others may replicate and confirm the test results.

Results:
When opponent is CROUCH blocking (first hit of BF1 will always whiff)
B12~BF1AMP
—> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
B1~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
F11~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
F3~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent at D1 range (following this with a D1 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)
B3~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent at the tip of D3 range
B31~BF1AMP —> +1 on block//leaves opponent at F1 range
F4~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//Leaves opponent at D1 range (following this with a D1 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)
F2~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent at D1 range (following this with a D1 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)

When opponent is STAND blocking the first hit of BF1 (Or somehow stand blocks high normals like F1 or F2)
B12~BF1AMP —> same as above
B1~BF1AMP —> same as above

F1~BF1AMP —> +1 on block//leaves opponent at F1 range (following this with a F1 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)
F11~BF1AMP —> +2 on block//leaves opponent at F1 range (following this with a F1 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)
B3~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent at F1 range
B31~BF1AMP —> +2 on block//leaves opponent at F4 range (following this with a F4 will cause the normal to become -2 on block instead of -3)
NOTE: F2 does NOT reach after B31~BF1AMP, so I guess this proves that F4 has slightly better reach than F2
F3~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside of D3 range (D4 will reach)
F4~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
F2~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)

NOTE: I have not been able to alter the block advantage of the AMP by delaying it, at most I have got certain situations where Raiden is 0 on block to become +1.

Summary
As you can see, doing BF1AMP after strings and normals leaves Raiden at worse 0 on block (meaning he can contest with certain normals) and creates different degrees of space depending on the situation. Those highlighted above are situations where a Raiden is probably more likely to use this technique in conjuction with his other existing mix-up tools in order to create space and sometimes even Block advantage. Not to mention this will alter the block advantage of follow-up normals. Admittedly, being only +1/2 at F1 distance is pretty meaningless, but it does create a decent amount of space, which Raiden (as a footsie and neutral-based character) is very dependent on to play his game. Raiden can enforce this as an extra layer of mixup when opponents have been conditioned to stand block (Like after F3).

NOTE: Doing this is unfortunately still risky (like many of Raiden’s gimmicks) as there is a huge delay between the string and BF1 from coming out, allowing opponents to not only flawless block, but even in some cases interrupt Raiden. MAKE SURE TO PROPERLY CONDITION YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE ATTEMPTING THIS

I have not tested every string due to time constraints and I really wanted to get this information out here so other members of the community can build upon this and hopefully find out some use for this.

S3 stuff
S3 has gotten a very needed hit box fix, allowing it to hit the opponent after hitting a D3. It is usually +3 on block. However, I have found that if one is to hit S3 at max range (when opponent is stand blocking —> need to test when opponent is crouching too :( ) it is possible to make S3 +4 or even +5. This is the same when hitting S3 after a max range D3 (also needs further testing with crouch block). I believe with the new hit box fixes to Raiden. He can (probably) get reliable plus frames (As reliable as you can with a just frame jail :( ), opening up new avenues of pressure in close range.

Please discuss and feel free to critique and re-test yourselves in the lab and confirm or disprove my results :)

@Trustful_Whale
@Marlow
@Darth Mao
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
S3 results 2: Electric Boogaloo (Screw you NRS)
So... thanks to @Trustful_Whale I now know that Jacqui has the smallest hurt box in the game. I set the AI to stance hold block at duck mode.

Results:(
At far range —> S3 whiffs
At mid range —> S3 whiffs
At close range —> S3 whiffs

After setting the Ai to auto block while ducking, I tried to jail into S3

Results
At far range —> S3 whiffs
At mid range —> S3 whiffs
At close range —> S3 whiffs (I got S2 to jail though so it’s not a timing problem)


In light of these depressing results. I switched back to Jade

Results
At close range (where most of your S3s will probably be landing) —> S3 lands (SOMETIMES) —> BUT —> it is now ALWAYS +4/5
Still couldn’t get it to jail though :(

I will try to test with some male characters but I wouldn’t get hopes up just yet. S3 is still a cock-swallowing cuntasaurus of a normal and I would REALLY love NRS to give Raiden some plus frames that do NOT whiff on crouch blocking opponents


EDIT: After testing on some male characters (namely Joker, Johnny, Raiden, Kotal and Liu), I have come to the following conclusion:

Unless you are RIGHT up into the hurt box of the opponent, S3 is NOT going to land consistently, anywhere further away will result in the normal whiffing even on crouch block. If S3 does happen to hit however, it is quite likely to get up to +5 (though for huge hurt box characters like Kotal you will be +3 up close and more plus the further you are away from him). This applies exactly to jailing as well. You must be RIGHT next to the opponent in order to s3 to hit in any capacity at all.

Now I know that 321 is now +6 and leaves Raiden at perfect B1 distance, but I am not sure of it’s use just of yet considering how outrageously hard it is to land S3 on its own
 
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Marlow

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Premium Supporter
Thanks for looking into this. I might have time on Sunday to actually play, so I'll see if I can come up with anything.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Thanks for looking into this. I might have time on Sunday to actually play, so I'll see if I can come up with anything.
The BF1 stuff is pretty legit. Huge hurt-box characters like Kotal have no choice but to hold the full BF1 and you get plus frames and distance. But in any case you're still 0 on block at D3 distance.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
My guess is most of it turns out to be both matchup and conditioning specific, but every bit helps.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
Is it possible that BF1 could work as a meaty? Say you do B31 2+4 or F32 or something else that ends in a knockdown, and then follow up with the BF1. Is there a way to space it so that you can force the opponent to block the amped BF1 on wakeup, and be plus enough and close enough to do anything with the plus frames?
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Is it possible that BF1 could work as a meaty? Say you do B31 2+4 or F32 or something else that ends in a knockdown, and then follow up with the BF1. Is there a way to space it so that you can force the opponent to block the amped BF1 on wakeup, and be plus enough and close enough to do anything with the plus frames?
Form my testing, BF1 AMP at max range (ie full screen) is +5, at most +6 if delayed (but hard to consistently get +6). I think the plus frames are distance dependent and you'd have to be at least around the D4 distance or further to be like +1, but I haven't tested meaty timings yet. I'll look into it when I have time
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
B12~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
B1~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
F11~BF1AMP —> 0 on block//leaves opponent just outside D3 range (D4 reaches)
For all the Raijin players, if my theory crafting is correct, you can frame trap into discharge in these situations too (no 6f move reaches far enough to contest), so an extra layer of mind games. Unless of course they armour through it will fatal blow