DP, focus breaking fireballs, focus breaking block strings, teleport away from pressure, great ultras, and 300+ damage BnBs to start. High execution yes (wheel kick links not fun), but he can do tons of damage off any touch, all of ryu's good buttons, and a great hard knockdown game.
For the sake of the thread i"m just going to spoiler most of this and say you don't know a damned thing you're talking about, @haketh . If you want a more verbose explanation, be my guest and click.
False. T. Hawk has better air buttons, which helps out air to air but again, why would you ever jump AT T. Hawk? The only ones you ever need are splash (close), RH (Far) or empty for tick set ups. The others don't matter.
On the ground Hugo has T. Hawk by the balls. Hugo can crouch mp, or crouch mk xx clap or just clap from further than anything T. Hawk can do and its all safe against most options. He can stuff fireballs and trade pixies with his enormous s. mp box. ANd sc. HP? Well, if T. Hawk had Hugo's S.HP he'd be top tier. All Hugo's other buttons are worthless admitted, but again, you don't need them when you have S/C.mp, c.mk, and s. HP. He also has a bunch of super tight (and unreliable) links of S. lp that lead to big damage (super, clothesline, ex clap, etc). Also, while Hugo's sweep is not great, he gets a free dash in after landing it, which T. Hawk doesn't (unles he lands the second hit only, or breaks a focus).
Outisde grab range, T. Hawk can use his little jab chop command normal to anti air characters with bad air buttons (nobody who matters), harrass with s. /c. mp/k, or try to get in with raw spire or c. mk xx spire, which is a BITCH to hit confirm. Even on hit, he has to respect a TON of reversals. Hugo does not because of S. HP. Up close, T. Hawk's jabs and shorts are brilliant tick tools because he can also rapid fire combo them into meager damage, but again, this is up close which is the place T. Hawk never gets to be. Lastly, on paper S. RH sounds good, and to the untrained eye / online player it IS really good. It has a great box and comes out pretty fast, but in actual application it hurts his grab game because of its pushback (even in the fucking corner) and trades or gets beat by every other good button in the game it seems because unlike Guy and Rose and Rufus and all those bastards, T. Hawk can be hit in his fucking long ass leg.
wtf is "movement", like, walk speed or jump arc? Neither of them should ever jump except on a read. Hugo walks slower, but he can approach with clap because it eats fireballs and is safe, with EX clothesline because it has like infinite armor and a hard knockdown, he can use his overhead to hope through a bunch of fireballs and beat lows, and he can use that silly c. hp to fuck up peoples wakeups. He also has the ability to ex shootdown (or regular shootdown is usually good enough) to escape most corner traps. T. Hawk on the other hand can .. uh. . . walk, or jump. Both of which remove his ability to block. none of his normals move forward except sweep (a dangerous proposition), and his approach specials are spire (which requires way more finesse than clap spam) or jump and dive, which only sets up knockdown games against cornered opponents, where it has the highest probability to hit box whiff.
If this EVER comes into play, you are fighting someone who does not know the T. Hawk matchup. When T. Hawk gets knocked down, you run. The end. In fact, what grappler in any game ever do you corpse camp? Seriously, if you EVER eat a wakeup Tomahawk xx Dive (Which costs two meters and pushes the enemy away, hurray) or SPD, you deserve to lose. But lets say you are fighting a moron, you know what T. Hawk can't fucking on wakeup that Hugo can? Armor cancel w/ cs. HP. This is the end of the reversal debate.
sigh.
Lets start with the focus. Hugo has a GIGANTIC hurtbox and gigantic hit box on his, this means likely to take the hit, and more likely to hit the recovery. T. Hawk has a stupid fucking hurtbox that misses a lot of highs and his head doesn't reach anywhere near as long as Hugo's arm. So you know what you don't ever do with T. Hawk? Focus. If you're that close, just SPD. Now, ignoring for a moment the fact that Hugo has actual combos off a crumple, lets assume the best either can do is an SPD. Well, Hugo also gets shootdown, clap, super, or u2 after any anti-air focus / juggle which he can do because of his enormous arm. T. Hawk gets a dick in his mouth for an air focus.
Now lets compare supers. Hugo's does less damage RAW, but it can be confirmed from clap, focus, and aa clothesline with ease. It goes through fireballs at point blank range, and it can also be followed up with claps, shootdown, or MOTHER FUCKING ULTRA. T. Hawks Super? It's a fucking grab, high damage, but not worth FOUR ex spds. You can play the glass cannon strategy with T. Hawk against a character like Akuma or Ibuki who is probably only going to give you ONE SHOT to get in, but you will get burned in most of your other matchups. Believe it. Hugo also needs to spend less meter in general during a match because NORMAL shootdown is a better AA option than EX tomahawk and clap combos are better and cheaper than tomahawk combos. Meanwhile, Hugo also gains meter faster because whiffed claps and clothesline work way better than whiffed spires. Everything else is equal (you use EX clap / clothesline) about as EX spire, both use EX SPD in same scenarios, and both of them have no reason to ever fadc.
Finally, Ultras? Again, Hugo's focus is better so automatically his U1 is more versatile. This includes red focus combos. He also has the armor cancel off cs. HP, which means any read normal / unarmored special / stuffed wakeup late in the game is a free U1. Similarly, T. Hawks aa U2 is a hit, not a grab, which means it can be beat in the air (rare, but it happens). It misses enemies below him (never happens to hugo) and is an execution nightmare. More importantly, T. Hawk can't combo into either of his Ultras ever (except a risky and expensive FADC/RFADC off TOmahawk. Hugo on the other hand gets U2 off: ultra throw, squasher, aa clap, aa clothesline, aa focus, and just about ANY aa normal, this includes the armored cs. HP or his ridiculously ranged s. HP.
Anything else? Well lets see. Hugo has armor cancels off cs. HP. which means any read is a free spd / ultra throw or meat squasher. Anti air? Shootdown not good enough? trade with anything and you get dealers choice. Super, ultra, super into ultra, clap into super into ultra. Or just absorb it with sc. HP, cancel into shoot down or take the trade. Or just use EX clothesline and eat whatever. There are like, two armor breaking air specials in the game, so literally no one is ever allowed to jump against Hugo with meter. Ever. What else? How bout gimmicks. Uh, hop fireballs with his overhead. Or, hop limbs with overhead, then link into clothesline for knockdown setups, or clap into super into ultra. How bout Ultra throw into clap into super into ultra from any grab set up. 1.04 Meat squasher STILL allows restand combos so, meat squasher into restand into clothesline / clap / super / ultra. T. Hawk has no gimmicks. He has s. mp, c. mp, c.mk xx spire, iffy s. rh and splash tick shenanigans. That's it. T. Hawk is an incredibly straight forward character with a singular straight forward strategy.
This change helps T. Hawk, but in no way makes him better than the other grapplers who already had red focus options. You cannot land it on an airborne opponent. Raw tomahawk is way more risky than any of the other dps. This means the ONLY time this happens is off a counter hit cs. MK / MP, or a jumpin. Woopdi freaking do, you know who else has RF combos off a jumpin? Everybody.
Having a DP is something Hugo AND T. Hawk would kill for because Tomahawk is not a dp. It is a glorified combo ender that just happens to hit airborne opponents from sweep range and further. You know what else hits there? Shootdown. You know what doesn't trade at that range? Shootdown. You know what does full damage no matter how it hits? Shootdown. You know what can be comboed into from a ton of things? Shootdown.
Point blank / cross up T. Hawk is as fucked AA wise as Hugo (As Hakan too for the record, the only one who has good aa poiint blank is gief). If people are meatying you (With either character) they are doing it wrong and they want to lose. Either character will ultra / dp / super you for big damage. Meterless, T. Hawk will score a tomahawk into meager damage, or if he hits you in the air, nothing. Hugo will score an armor cancelled sc. HP into BIG damage, or if you're in the air, EX clothesline you into big damage.
False false false triple false. T. Hawk can get in with spire. That is his ONLY approach. All the other reads / problems are exactly the same with both characters. Dive is a joke. His buttons don't move and most push him away on hit. His focus is useless. His dash is equal or maybe even worse than Hugos. Spire has no armor, has wonky invincibility, and doesn't guarantee ANYTHING. Sometimes it will net you a buster on juggle. Most times on hit you will get a butter churn spd, or maybe land a frame trap with a close normal, which is both difficult to confirm into tomahawk and extremely dangerous against a ton of characters. EX Spire is good, but that burns an EX SPD, which you will absolutley need to win. If you make your opponent afraid of you, then you can get your splash / tick game going, and make no mistake, T. Hawk does have the best of ALL the grapplers, even Fuerte, but all they have to do is realize you're all bark no bite and start disrespecting you to win. You have to guess right 3-4 (or more times) to pile drive someone into submission, all they need is ONE wake up DP and you're back on the other side of the screen. Hugo, on the other hand, can overhead THROUGH fireballs and force the opponent to move. His s. mp keeps mid range characters at bay, and he has the best aa of all the grapplers because shootdown is great, ex clothesline is better and all trades lead BIG damage.
Anyone who has ever said "You're better off playing T. Hawk" for any matchup has never played T. Hawk. T. Hawk has a couple definitive winning matches, that you would still be better off picking a ton of other characters. As for Hugo, he seems like a yolo character, but he's not. What he does is shut down the opponents options. You have to be aware of your weapons and pick your opponent apart and make him feel stupid for thinking he's in control of the match. The second he starts blocking and thinking, you grab him and kill him. The problem is sometimes the opponent actually IS in control of the match, and that magic moment will never actually happen. Watch this match:
Granted, this is Alex Valle we're talking about, and E Ryu is one of Hugo's easier (though not in Hugo's favor, just easier because of shit health) but watch the way he uses the armor, watch the constant clap harassment and the way he sticks out those big stupid buttons. Evil Ryu is forced to question everything he does. T. Hawk can't do ANY of that. You'll notice Alex starts to come apart in match two when he forgets that he has the ability to literally skip Ryu's fireballs. He starts jumping and that's when Daigo starts picking him apart. This is T. Hawk's ENTIRE match, against everybody. He can't jump, he can't walk. His buttons are counter productive. He has to read intensely, and make several yolo gambles on big damage butter churn spds. Take a look at these matches;
Rufus is one of T. Hawk (or any grappler, really)'s shit matchups, his buttons are great. Ex fucking Messiah kick, tons of anti air, and his ultra connects off everything. And yet, Native (one of, if not the best) wins. Why? Because this is a fine example of how not to fight against T. Hawk. When ricky hangs back and presses buttons, all native can do is eat them. He tries random jumps and mash on jab for puny damage, he chases Rufus all around the stage for minor gain and one mistake and ricky is scot free. None of his buttons work in trade and Spire is unreliable at best. But when he finally scores a pile driver, Ricky starts using his brain, and that when he dies. He starts thinking this is a real character, that he has to use mix ups on and respect, and Native just grabs him again and again and again with butter churn spds. Any grappler can do this. This is not a T. Hawk highlight reel. This is a grappler highlight reel. Now look at this:
Dudley is a good match for T. Hawk. His buttons have great boxes but bad range, he can be grabbed during everything, he has recovery on most specials, and he HAS to come to you. However, Smug is one of the most YOLO guys in the business. Watch how he wins, watch when he loses. Blocking, attempting meaties, trying flashy combos, they keep getting him killed. Because T. Hawk has taken 40+ punches to the face and scored a desperation ultra. Now, when does Smug win? WHen he stays at neutral range and just does random punches to beat T. Hawk's total shitbird offense. Watch Native get punished for landing an EX spire. One match he beats Native entirely with a single button from within the corner. Why? Because Native can't do anything about it. Nothing at fucking all. Can't spire, can't jump, can't grab from that far, can't poke. Just eat fierce and hope for a read. Smug never gives it to him. The end.
Hugo would put both of these characters on their back because he has fucking armor, because they can't jump, and they don't dare hang out anywhere near him when he wakes up.
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