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Unnecessary Execution Barriers / Extra Button Inputs

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
@ShadyHeart
I take it you never got into Smash Melee. It has two attack buttons. Simple. Until you want to learn things like Shffl-ing.
I know about Melee. Those techniques aren't arbitrary but it does have the biggest arbitrary game mechanic i have seen in any fighting game. L-Canceling. L-Canceling is just muscle memory that you have to get down and it contributes nothing to the game unlike other mechanics such as wave dashing. You could simply make it automatic (like you could in project melee) and NOTHING would change except for getting rid of an execution barrier that does nothing but hurt new players. Stanky Leg input is in the same category of game mechanics that do nothing but hurt people trying to learn the game, except it's far less necessary than L-Canceling and also far more difficult. If Stanky Leg were an U4 input it would only do good.

Comparing to Jax's grab is also not very meaningful considering the fact that literally not 1 person on the entire planet is consistent with it, it's one reason why the variation is inferior, and it's another example of an arbitrary game mechanic.

You can add commands to moves to make them more interesting even if it makes them more difficult, but you can't do stupid shit like what they did to stanky leg and jax grab and say it's not an arbitrary mechanic that isn't bad design because it is. There are other ways to add execution barriers that don't shit on 99% of players and aren't arbitrary.
 

24K

Noob
Making L-Cancels automatic would change a lot. The point of the L-Cancel is to cancel some frames on the end of the fall and start up frames of your next move. So you can land quicker and attack faster. Being able to do it means you have the advantage in battle against those who can't. So it isn't arbitrary. Its very useful. But not necessary. You can play without it if you can't do it. But you are exactly right. It is muscle memory. And if your muscles can remember how to do that. With all that goes with it and still launch an attack after it. Then there is no reason you couldn't learn anything else. Smash is one of my fave games. I don't play in tournaments or anything. But I will have a Smash weekend and just play non stop. Because it is insanely fun. And I have more fun with all the thumb work that goes into that game than any other game I play. I can do all the fancy stuff. And I generally do for the joy. But I have mates who can't. And they have a good enough chance to beat me. The more they play the more they learn these techniques.

The Jax thing is now that much cooler. I didn't know so many people had such a problem with it. And if only 1% of people can do it then its even better that its so hard. Because when I can eventually do It, it will be that much more hype. I can't see anyway how that is a bad thing. What makes you think you should be able to do everything in the game without practicing your ass off. Nobody is that special that things should just be handed to them. That isn't reasonable at all. There is plenty in the game for new players. And only a hand full of things for players who have a higher skill level. So why would you want to take something away from a higher level player just so you can do it too. When you have so much at your disposal. Its about balance. Not about making everything so easy for the newer guys that it gets boring for the guys with some time under their belts. There is no point playing if there is no challenge. And if there is something that is so hard that only 1% of people can do it then that's an issue, if it was the only thing in the game. But if it doesn't effect the game in a negative way. Then I am all for it. And if i never get to that level then so be it, i didn't deserve it.

But it seems this is one of those topics that will never be resolved.

One side says make it so easy everybody can do everything and all things are accessible with no effort.

The other side says balance the game for everybody. So there are things the newer guys can do. And then there are also things that the higher tier players can do. And have something that very few people can do. Because a fair game that keeps us challenged as we get better is the better option.

So this will be argued about until the end of gaming.
 
@ShadyHeart
I take it you never got into Smash Melee. It has two attack buttons. Simple. Until you want to learn things like Shffl-ing. I would suggest you find that game and practice that. Its the hardest easy thing in any fighting game I reckon. It will make all combos and buttons much easier when you have learned how to do it. And it will carry over to any fighting game you pick up on in the future. Good foundations make it easy to learn anything. Well, easier.
haha, that's honestly terrible advice and completely incorrect. pretty much none of the smash execution carries over to fighting games. i've got a couple of friends i've tried to convert who are top 10 smashers in my country (they travel/attend dreamhack, for instance.) they are good at smash but their execution in fighting games is pretty bad.

smash inputs are inherently vastly different from the ones in games such as sf4, kof or guilty gear. in smash, you'll often see people mention someone's "tech skill," then proceed to mention his APM as evidence of it. that is *not* a thing when it comes to fighting games. in smash a lot of things are simply about making inputs in a particular order at high speed, while precision or accuracy (such as always needing an X frame gap between inputs, having stick direction in one place on frame Y, but then switching the position as you hit a button on frame Z.) in smash it's more about speed, and less about precise execution. i personally believe this difference is why every single smasher i've faced in 2d fighters also happen to be mashers galore. they just can't stop hitting buttons.

if you want to give people advice for an actual fighting game with execution skills that translate to all other fighters, you should be telling them to play guilty gear (which is by far and away the best/highest skill ceiling fighter currently active. at least in terms of mechanics, design and depth.)
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
if input shortcuts worked with 2-in-1 inputs and not just raw specials a lot of your issues would be solved.
 

24K

Noob
@angry bruiser
I agree about Smashers having the wrong technical skill. But what they point was, sorry if I didn't actually make it, that people shouldn't worry about EB or KL's inputs or Stanky Leg. Because its a speed thing. Well in the beginning. I haven't bothered more with KL, but EB's string is fun. And after you get it down on raw speed you can break it drown and just use the parts you want before cancelling into whatever. No longer making it a dial a combo. Stanky Leg is just dial it in quickly. Which a Smasher would get easy.

And I would recommend GG games to every player in the community. But you will then really hear the "make fighting games easier" shouts coming out.

Sorry to everybody though. I do feel like I sound a dick. Was thinking about it over the weekend. And perhaps there are players who just want to press the buttons and get the commands. I personally don't ever want it to be easy. For me or the other players. Because I like to feel the sense of accomplishment. You can't smack talk if the dude you talking smack to is able to do the same stuff. And I think smack talk and mean mugging are an important part of the community. Especially between two mates playing at home on the couch.