Unnecessary Execution Barriers / Extra Button Inputs

[chr1sam]

You sound like a World of Warcraft casual crying on the Forums that your 5th and 6th spells are too much to handle.

Be thankful how easy NRS games are in the execution department.

First of all, I'm not crying.

Second of all, I'm not trying to complain about things being difficult in general. Things like run cancels are difficult but make sense in the way they are implemented and I've taken the time in training mode to learn to do them.

I'm talking about things that are UNNESSCARILY harder to do then they should be.

And honestly I don't get all you guys saying MKX is so easy execution wise. Maybe you guys are all playing Ninjutsu Scorpion but all the variations I play require a good amount of execution.

And don't think this is the only fighting game I've played.

Like I said earlier, I've played Marvel, SF, Tekken, Persona, KOF. And honestly I think the execution required for this game surpasses all of those except KOF and maybe Marvel depending on the character.

 

[Tweedy]

I stayed away from fighting games for a long time, because I didn't want to learn how to execute properly. I just wanted to engage in the mind games and metas of each game.

There's definitely satisfaction when you get certain stuff down. That's the appeal imo. There are some people who don't even play the game that much and just do crazy combos on youtube/TYM, because of this.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Don't you play Cyrax and Liu Kang though? I couldn't imagine a grappler especially Jason being harder.

Yeah, my characters are Liu Kang, Cyrax and Kenshi... but sometimes i play Sun God just for fun

 

[GAV]

I hear you, SF or KoF are beyond my skills....

KOF is traditionally difficult, but SF is traditionally very easy. You just need to have opposable thumbs.

The Marvel vs Capcom series is the hardest execution-wise, IMO.

 

[Error]

But actually, Stanky leg has a really dumb input for a normal attack, why it's not just u4 is beyond me.

 

[Gooberking]

We're not talking about high execution, just UNNECESSARY execution.
Strings and moves that shouldnt be as hard as they are, just for the sake of being harder.

NRS includes stuff like cancels to cater to those that feel rewarded for performing them, but the rest of us who want to do a simple string have to do these dumb directions for literally no reason. Its like someone at NRS didnt like how normal the move lists looked so they thought adding random directions to them would make them feel cooler.

This thread triggers me so hard.

(Not singling u out btw)

I really don't think it's totally about feeling cool or anything particularly vain. It's about being feeling a part of what you are doing, supplying a learning curve that rewards over time, and giving players an experience that doesn't get boring after 10 hours.

People play fighting games for hundreds of hours and a game needs to be capable of keeping players stimulated for that ridiculous amount of time. People really are only stimulated while they are challenged, or learning.

There may not be a huge, technical reason why SZ's B33 D4 couldn't be B334, but I think there are human reasons to do it. It's something to explore, it's more engaging because it feels more like the move should feel creating some connection to the action, it makes building the muscle memory slightly more awkward but more satisfying to execute in the long run because it's more than just button button button, and when I get to the point where I'm as comfortable doing it with the extra stuff than without, I have reached a point I can step on to something more complicated instead of having to make a jump to things like command moves. In that respect it also exists to help provide a learning curve instead of a learning staircase.

There is a definite, frustrating reality to having to balance the need to allow for all skills, and deliberately making it so the game doesn't know what you want when it could shouldn't be a goal, but I do think an extra directional input for a chain combo has enough value to justify their existence. I get that it may not be something someone wants to deal with that is only going to be playing for 10-30 hours, but you need stuff to keep you going after 500 hours. It may seem kind a trivial and unnecessary, but it does feel like a much fuller experience when you are sinking major time into this stuff.

 

[Wigy]

sub zero easy ? try cryomancer combos like midscreen f112 f112 d1 b12 command grab or his 1 tick throw or b3 tick throw lol

100% easy.

Not even being a dick.

Sub is easy as fuck in execution and gameplan.

 

[ShadyHeart]

I thought you were gonna mention the actual bullshit things. Stuff like 2 frame links and stanky leg. Thankfully this game doesn't have much in terms of arbitrary execution difficulty like some other games. A lot of devs think frame perfect links, pressing a button literally every time you land to not get stuck in recovery frames, absurd special inputs, etc. is a good thing.

 

[Cashual]

I vote for kung laos chain fist if I have to learn a technique to do a combo there's a problem. There is no reason why I should have to get used to rolling my fingers over 1 and 2, pushing 1 first then 2 1 2 or whatever it was. Every time I try to practice I stop and go play someone else. bruh why would you do that to yourself

I get the concept of tight links in a game like sf where you are timing strikes and it's not always purely speed but a kind of rhythm, or grinding visual and audio cues.

But in the context of these dial-a-combo strings it does just seem unnecessary. This string is particularly bad, and I also think erron's advancing punches everyone cancels into tackle is sort of needlessly difficult.

In general, difficulty rewards practice and I find it gratifying to learn difficult things. It feels good to land something you once thought impossible or over your head.

Ramping difficulty just purely for its own sake is pretty dumb though. Fighting games should strive to balance pitting people's wits and brains with also challenging their physical reactions and coordination imo

 

[zabugi]

U only get problems when u think too much about it. Let your fingers do the thinking and your brain everything else. Dont u notice when u perform some combos 'snap' like that?

 

[Shirai Ryu Dog]

Spectral even with the input change ...DUR2 is still annoying af

Also hate that sektor combo where he has to backdash

 

[xSamuel]

I've always heard how low the execution barrier is in MK so I assumed it was to make up for the combo system's simplicity. The string difficulty may also have something to do with how easy they are to hit confirm or extra damage they give to combos. From the examples I've read so far, they are all integral strings in the characters' game-plan, optimal damaging combos, or are easy to hit-confirm. Because of that, they make them harder so that not everyone can jump on a character and run with it. That's my thought anyways

you mean f12b2 x3? its a matter of practice i can perform it 10/10 online

I agree it's all about practicing but I don't believe you can do it 10/10 on every type of character. Not that I don't think you can do it more often than not but it's so variable in the juggle depending on spacing and the character size.

 

[24K]

I really like all the extra inputs. Its fun to be able to get them down. I don't think I have come across any input chain that had something I would have changed. If you break it right down, there are only so many chains in the game. If they were made as simple as they could be then you would be able to learn one character, and just jump straight into another and right off the bat you would know all of their moves and all you would have to do is learn where the same generic chains are placed and in what order to get their bnb combos and the like.

If you break it down even further why not just have two buttons in the whole game. Ala Divekick. That game is fun. But I wouldn't spend hours on it. It just isn't rewarding. There are easy characters in MK and there are the non easy characters in MK. But honestly if you can learn d12 and you know how to press up, then you can learn d1u2. Its a fighting game, it isn't supposed to be mind numbing button mashing. What is the point of even playing if everything was so easy.

The whole its to hard for new comers argument is ridiculous. The game has easier characters for them. But that doesn't matter if the people they are playing against are crazy good. The new players can learn the easy characters with their friends and the can grow from the start. Every single person who plays fighting games had to play the first game the first time. And they chose to stick with it. There is so much fun just in being able to pull off the cool moves for the first time and styling on chumps. Take the fun combos and chains out and that is all lost.

No fighting game I have ever played has been to hard. All of them have harder elements. And you work around that until you can do them.

And I agree with having the inputs match what the character on screen is doing. If he does something low adding in a down button is good. Especially if it helps keep that chain or string different to a string another character uses. DB and DBF are no more difficult to do than 12 or 122. Its got nothing to do with hard execution or easy execution but everything to do with the person playing the characters good execution on button presses or sloppy execution on button presses.

Then with not having to learn new techniques when you start a new fighter. Either learn to use your thumb faster or find ways to get the button presses in quicker. What is the problem with having to learn how to roll your thumb. It makes it different to play to other fighters and that's a good thing. I want each fighting game I play to look and feel different to the others I play. Otherwise whats the point, we could all just pick one game and one character and one combo string and be done.

Sorry if that sounds negative towards anything anybody else has said, no mean intention. Its just a bit of a rantty topic.

But in all seriousness, there are to many different letter combinations on my keyboard. And capital letters and punctuation is a bitch.
I'm off to play Divekick

 

[Tony at Home]

Yeah, these odd extraneous presses for simple strings make no sense.

F2, B1 is not anymore exciting to me than F2, 1. I just care about the move. If it makes no difference to me, but is forcing new players to get out sticky notes just to have fun, then it ought to be removed.

The thing is, NRS is generally awesome about this. They aren't like other developers that hide the "scary stuff" from new players by putting it behind a week of initial practice. They want you to have fun and give you access to the Good Shit immediately. Supers are just trigger clicks.

So yeah, these inputs don't really like up with other NRS decisions and i don't think this was an intentional effect on their part.

So I'd actually wager this was an oversight or just some"hard coded" thing left in. I'd encourage you to just reach out to the devs and let them know that as a new player, this is irksome

 

[RequiemOfaVortex]

is kotal the only one with DB (command throw)

 

[Skullcalibur]

Same could be said about special moves. The reason they are down-forward etc is because they were designed that way (I think it was street fighter originally) to feel more powerful. Kunglao 11212 makes the move feel rapidly fast. Tremor's 21d4u4 makes the move feel like a strict martial art form. Think back to akumas super input sequence.

 

[Zaccel]

Same could be said about special moves. The reason they are down-forward etc is because they were designed that way (I think it was street fighter originally) to feel more powerful.

Originally they were to keep them a secret (back in '87 I'd imagine the 623P input was absolute sorcery). It also meant they were unlikely to be done by accident; a philosophy which extended to SFII. Kara-cancelling and negative-edge were introduced, but the inputs were kept, which is telling.

Other, more esoteric inputs, like the Raging Demon (or Tenrai-Ha, etc.), were originally just corny busywork, but have found a certain place of their own.

 

[ChaosTheory]

One of MK's trademarks to me is the simple execution as compared to other fighters. You can completely focus on the intangible stuff.

MKX is the same for the most part. The notable exceptions have been mentioned already.

KL's 1,1,212 is silly. EB's 2,11,22 is much easier but still goofy. Every command grab except SG's is unnecessary.... still nothing way difficult. Just unnecessary. Enough to discourage a player from picking up Commando Kano or Tempest Lao.

That trademark just goes away for certain commands. Never been sure why exactly.

 

[ShadyHeart]

I think if every special was a quarter circle, back forward, or double tap down input, the world would be a better place.

 

[21122]

Lol you should see the input of Rajin and Izuna drop from DOA, you'll have a heart attack

 

[SM StarGazer]

Lol try lightning loops in Marvel. Storms infinite. Dante's long one bar combos. Converting off Dante's lvl 3. Playing Izayoi in BlazBlue. Playing Ken and Koromaru in P4A.

Mkx has baby execution compared to other fighters.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Like all execution barriers, they're only useless if you can't get over them.

 

[ShadyHeart]

Like all execution barriers, they're only useless if you can't get over them.

What?

 

[FL Rushdown]

What?

People think they're too hard or silly only when they can't get passed them.

 

[ShadyHeart]

People think they're too hard or silly only when they can't get passed them.

Sometimes execution barriers are arbitrary and not good for the game.