UMK3's Kara and Glitch Jab's

[BustaUppa]

Fighting games have always had unintended mechanics that creep up after extended playtime. Stuff the developers never accounted for that end up affecting the gameplay at a high level. Sometimes you get a happy accident - like, most famously, combos in Street Fighter II. Combos blew the game open and expanded the possibilities of what people could do in a SFII match, to the point that the mechanic was deliberately programmed into later iterations of the series.

On the other side of the coin, you have glitch jabs. Another unintended mechanic that took a while to be discovered. But unlike combos, GJs limit the viable options that a player has. GJs are a programming oversight rather than a happy accident. Granted, a dedicated pool of people have compensated for this oversight over the years, and built an entire metagame around it - but it's still an oversight, and nothing that a competent designer would have implemented on purpose.

It's like, I dunno, if Mario Kart 8 had some glitch where you could get free blue shells through some flaw in the game. I'm sure people could build strategies around the free shell tactic and have competitive matches around it, but people would be totally justified in not wanting to play that game anymore. It doesn't mean that the former players "couldn't compete," nor does it mean that there isn't any legit strategy or fun to be had in the glitched game. People should be honest enough to recognize an empirical flaw as a flaw, and sensible enough let people play (or not play) whatever they want, without any grief.

Not sure what my exact point is here, but I just wanted to articulate all that. Can't wait for UMK3:TE!

 

[nwo]

What do you guys think of this @tank u-gin and @umk_p1? Would you consider these double kara jabs? I practiced vs the CPU for a few minutes, I don't normally utilize this tactic in real matches. This was done without ever letting go of the RUN button by the way...which means there is a 0% chance of throwing a hat...

Both jabs are cancelled with block + back + down.

 

[tank u-gin]

What do you guys think of this @tank u-gin and @umk_p1? Would you consider these double kara jabs? I practiced vs the CPU for a few minutes, I don't normally utilize this tactic in real matches. This was done without ever letting go of the RUN button by the way...which means there is a 0% chance of throwing a hat...

Both jabs are cancelled with block + back + down.

If you don't release RUN, you're not be able to cancel last jab, so you will move slower than you can. For example - You pressed run, after that you make double jab, and keep block pressed, while you pressing the jabbutton, you release run, and after second jab is done you release block, and press run - this run is cancel your last jab. understand? so it can help you to reduce the distance faster! - it is very important. Trust us =) And one more thing - if you don't release run - your runbar ends quicker!
In your video - i can see what your character moves slower than he can after second jab.

 

[umk_p1]

What do you guys think of this @tank u-gin and @umk_p1? Would you consider these double kara jabs? I practiced vs the CPU for a few minutes, I don't normally utilize this tactic in real matches. This was done without ever letting go of the RUN button by the way...which means there is a 0% chance of throwing a hat...

Both jabs are cancelled with block + back + down.

i explained everythinh in the hack thread , kung lao to be as good double karajabber as the rest of the cast u have to keep holding run and with other characters you dont't have to do it (except sonya), simple as that. So i don't release run as well and as i said before, i hold run - do 1st jab- cancell it with block and keep holding block while doing 2nd jab and all this time run button is hold too and on top of that i cancell 2nd jab with Lk/Hk. In your videos second jab is not cancelled and your lao's double karajab game is therefor inferior than if u would cancell it. The other aspect is that u don't play vs stupid cpu, we play against pretty experienced players who attack you fiersely, so you have to press back and forth few times in a second, you have to release run to do some kick combos, maybe duck LK or maybe sweep, there are tons of scenarios where his hat will eventually fuck u up unless you back off your jab game

 

[nwo]

If you don't release RUN, you're not be able to cancel last jab, so you will move slower than you can. For example - You pressed run, after that you make double jab, and keep block pressed, while you pressing the jabbutton, you release run, and after second jab is done you release block, and press run - this run is cancel your last jab. understand? so it can help you to reduce the distance faster! - it is very important. Trust us =) And one more thing - if you don't release run - your runbar ends quicker!
In your video - i can see what your character moves slower than he can after second jab.

In a real match, you wouldn't be jabbing in from full screen. Once I got into range (and into rhythm) the run meter was under control.

Also, Kabal has shorter faster jabs by default..

i explained everythinh in the hack thread , kung lao to be as good double karajabber as the rest of the cast u have to keep holding run and with other characters you dont't have to do it (except sonya), simple as that. So i don't release run as well and as i said before, i hold run - do 1st jab- cancell it with block and keep holding block while doing 2nd jab and all this time run button is hold too and on top of that i cancell 2nd jab with Lk/Hk. In your videos second jab is not cancelled and your lao's double karajab game is therefor inferior than if u would cancell it. The other aspect is that u don't play vs stupid cpu, we play against pretty experienced players who attack you fiersely, so you have to press back and forth few times in a second, you have to release run to do some kick combos, maybe duck LK or maybe sweep, there are tons of scenarios where his hat will eventually fuck u up unless you back off your jab game

In my video (towards the end of the video), both jabs are unpunishable. Whether I was playing vs the CPU or not for a demonstration is irrelevant. A decent Kung Lao should not be relying on this tactic anyway. .

and btw, I've played hundreds of matches vs top USA and Canada players this year alone, matches you won't see on YouTube

 

[umk_p1]

In a real match, you wouldn't be jabbing in from full screen. Once I got into range (and into rhythm) the run meter was under control.

Also, Kabal has shorter faster jabs by default..



In my video (towards the end of the video), both jabs are unpunishable. Whether I was playing vs the CPU or not for a demonstration is irrelevant. A decent Kung Lao should not be relying on this tactic anyway. .

and btw, I've played hundreds of matches vs top USA and Canada players this year alone, matches you won't see on YouTube

i don't doubt your skills, mate, no need to ensure me
1) i wasn't saying that your jabs are punishable, i said your second jab was not cancelled, so it slows down your rush and if u encounter a lao(or any other) player who does cancell 2nd jab then you will be stuffed
2) kabal does not have shorter or faster jabs, all jabs in the game have the same startup, the only difference is hitbox position, kabal's jab are the farthest
3) playing against cpu's patterns or real human is strongly relevant! you were demonstrating me that jabs are safe and hatfree playing against CPU, i can't see how is it not relevant? because i already wrote what is the difference btween playing cpu and human in my previous post.
4) decent player (not only Lao) must know and be able to perform every possible option his character has been given

 

[dubson]

He's simply saying your jabs could be more optimal @nwo , but that's just preference and opinion I believe.

Yes your doing a double kara jab, but your not canceling the second jab with run, shortening the animation (kara).

I think there i some confusion. The russian cats seem to think your better off doing two jabs canceled with run and block opposed to the way your doing it. I think the difference in tactics will prove to be extremely miniscule and 99% not likely to determine who will win the match based on tactics in themselves. I think they both have the place at different time and one isn't overall better than the other, and that is too broad and general to label that way. Too situational.

I encounter this a lot actually, and always have since fighting games existed. Just because your good with certain strategies, combos, infinities, tactics, etc, no matter how advanced they are, they don't make up for great reads and great fighting fundamentals that just come with playing fighting games over years at higher levels. (This is in no way a shot at you NWO, this statement is not referring to you at all)

They are right that you aren't canceling the second jab with run but I feel like they are putting way too much stock into you doing it "this way over that way" with the kara/glitch jabs.

Your at a level already imo that if it was the case, you would already doing it "their"way. And that isn't even to say that sometimes you don't….

 

[dubson]

I see it more from their side the more I think about it. Their way may be more optimal for closing distance…. especially for like he said it spares run meter...

 

[nwo]

i don't doubt your skills, mate, no need to ensure me
2) kabal does not have shorter or faster jabs, all jabs in the game have the same startup, the only difference is hitbox position, kabal's jab are the farthest

After doing a test, I fully admit that I was wrong about this. Kabal's jabs have even more range than Lao's. I guess because Kung Lao is sleeveless his jabs "appear" longer to me.

Kabal makes this high pitched "eeah! eeah!" sound while jabbing so his jabs might only seem faster, and his black gloves might also add to that effect.

He's simply saying your jabs could be more optimal @nwo , but that's just preference and opinion I believe.

Yes your doing a double kara jab, but your not canceling the second jab with run, shortening the animation (kara).

I think there i some confusion. The russian cats seem to think your better off doing two jabs canceled with run and block opposed to the way your doing it. I think the difference in tactics will prove to be extremely miniscule and 99% not likely to determine who will win the match based on tactics in themselves. I think they both have the place at different time and one isn't overall better than the other, and that is too broad and general to label that way. Too situational.

I've watched some of their fights, including some of tank u-gins when he came to the USA earlier this year. I think the usefulness of "double kara jabs" is very minimal to put it lightly, but I also think that kara jabs and glitch jabs in general are exaggerated as far as "ruining umk3" goes. If both players can utilize them, the game tends to open back up and other moves and tactics become relevant again. Just like what @tank u-gin was saying a few posts ago.

 

[umk_p1]

After doing a test, I fully admit that I was wrong about this. Kabal's jabs have even more range than Lao's. I guess because Kung Lao is sleeveless his jabs "appear" longer to me.

Kabal makes this high pitched "eeah! eeah!" sound while jabbing so his jabs might only seem faster, and his black gloves might also add to that effect.


I've watched some of their fights, including some of tank u-gins when he came to the USA earlier this year. I think the usefulness of "double kara jabs" is very minimal to put it lightly, but I also think that kara jabs and glitch jabs in general are exaggerated as far as "ruining umk3" goes. If both players can utilize them, the game tends to open back up and other moves and tactics become relevant again. Just like what @tank u-gin was saying a few posts ago.

you describing that "eeah eeah" so funny actually i've noticed it too, that high pitched easy hearable voice indicating the move being done is so convinient in terms of let's say confirmation.

i agree with dubson and you and initially with U-Gin, that when both players master some so called "broken" technique, then they are equal again, then every fundamental difference between characters become relevant again, and that broken stuff was there just to filter out hardcore and casual ones, test our loyalty..... i know sounds like a priest talking lol

1 more thing i should say is cancelled double jabs are intended to be just like single jabs(and mb even better), and we never allow ourselves to do noncancelled single jab rushdown, because it's no longer a "rush", they are slow, so are double jabs, why wouldn't we cancel if we do it with singles?

ok that wasn't last, one more thing: jabs when cancelled are being reduced in animation due to ACTIVE frames and NOT recovery frames!!!! i tested it a lot, it is something to work on more seriously, because there is a chance we were doing everything wrong all this years not sure though. There are benefits from not cancelling active grames in exchange to slowing down the rushdown, you can feel it when opponent does some special move or sometimes even when he is karajabbing, ideally kancelled karajabs have 2 active frames (iirc) and not cancelled at all have 6 frames, and you can reduce them slice by slice frame by frame 6-5-4-3 and to 2, if you can react, and recovery frames remain still.

 

[nwo]

ok that wasn't last, one more thing: jabs when cancelled are being reduced in animation due to ACTIVE frames and NOT recovery frames!!!! i tested it a lot, it is something to work on more seriously, because there is a chance we were doing everything wrong all this years not sure though. There are benefits from not cancelling active grames in exchange to slowing down the rushdown, you can feel it when opponent does some special move or sometimes even when he is karajabbing, ideally kancelled karajabs have 2 active frames (iirc) and not cancelled at all have 6 frames, and you can reduce them slice by slice frame by frame 6-5-4-3 and to 2, if you can react, and recovery frames remain still.

Well, I'm taking a small 2 week break from MK, starting last Saturday. My stick isn't even set up right now, I was still able to test Kabal's jab range with my keyboard and also confirm that Kung Lao has a longer range on his sweep (which is useful for fighting against glitch / kara jabs).

I might take another look into this in the future though, or if you could post a video of Lao throwing faster double jabs than in my video that would be great (if hes throwing accidental hats I don't think that's more optimal).

I was analyzing some match videos last night and one video really stood out to me, that puts things into perspective. Shock vs NoDoubt in a grand finals from 2-3 years ago, @Shock threw almost zero jabs (of any kind) in the entire GF, only a couple times when he was cornering or being cornered, and he won. Nothing against @NoDoubt, these were very competitive close fights and I also believe he's beaten Shock before.

 

[NoDoubt]

^ that was on the ps 3 mk arcde kollection before it was patched with sound , hotbox glitches , input delay and dropped inputs lol . Using it as an example of competitive strategy is kinda useless

This tourney and summer jam 2011 I wanted to refuse playing in cuz of the platform conditions but had no choice cuz of the travel and expenses costing me. Seasons beatings above was a 12 hr drive and hotel cost with the CD brothers while summer jam had me in the middle of hurricane Katrina playing on a no sound laptop stretched full screen . Jam actually had a cancelled tourney fee wise so it was free but still put on YouTube.

2 tournies I won were never recorded or shown . Brawl of 2012 was actually streamed but deleted soon after

 

[nwo]

^ that was on the ps 3 mk arcde kollection before it was patched with sound , hotbox glitches , input delay and dropped inputs lol . Using it as an example of competitive strategy is kinda useless

Well I know MKAK blows. I maybe thought you guys had "signed a contract" or something to not jab. LOL I could be wrong.

EDIT: but you were jabbing alot more than him.

 

[nwo]

This tourney and summer jam 2011 I wanted to refuse playing in cuz of the platform conditions but had no choice cuz of the travel and expenses costing me. Seasons beatings above was a 12 hr drive and hotel cost with the CD brothers while summer jam had me in the middle of hurricane Katrina playing on a no sound laptop stretched full screen . Jam actually had a cancelled tourney fee wise so it was free but still put on YouTube.

2 tournies I won were never recorded or shown . Brawl of 2012 was actually streamed but deleted soon after

I didn't mean to drag either of you guys into some bullshit, lets not cause a bullshit storm here.

The jabs are just an observation I made, and it could damn well be entirely due to MKAK.

 

[NoDoubt]

Well I know MKAK blows. I maybe thought you guys had "signed a contract" or something to not jab. LOL I could be wrong.

EDIT: but you were jabbing alot more than him.

There were never any rules in tourney but when u realize ur gameplays limited under bad conditions u don't have a choice but to jab to be as safe as u can. Ultimately it turns u into a punching bag really but we were all kinda stuck playin that port like I said. Why we used it beats me...We were supposed to use mame but the decision got changed right before the tourney began as u can read in the video comments

Mame is way harder and timely to set up over the ak but when money and travels at stake u gotta sacrifice to make an even fair field. As a result, mame was mainly used after this event

 

[tank u-gin]

The conversation was about Why Kung Lao can throw his hat incidentally. We explained how it can be done. Nwo just said what he have no problem with Kung Lao's hat. Because we and nwo make double glitch jabs differently. Ok we just understood each other =). But the problem with incidentall hat still exist for us =). Because we make double glitch jabs with canceling second jab by run. =).
As i know there was some changes with Lao's hat input, right?

 

[tank u-gin]

And the point is very simple - why people make run jab? For the same reason people make double glitch jabs cancelled with run. Your character starts running earlier, after doing second jab. Why do they need it? Because you can reach opponent faster. We just explained why we play like this. You guys don't have to do the same things =)

 

[ded]

Well, I'm taking a small 2 week break from MK, starting last Saturday. My stick isn't even set up right now, I was still able to test Kabal's jab range with my keyboard and also confirm that Kung Lao has a longer range on his sweep (which is useful for fighting against glitch / kara jabs).

I might take another look into this in the future though, or if you could post a video of Lao throwing faster double jabs than in my video that would be great (if hes throwing accidental hats I don't think that's more optimal).

I was analyzing some match videos last night and one video really stood out to me, that puts things into perspective. Shock vs NoDoubt in a grand finals from 2-3 years ago, @Shock threw almost zero jabs (of any kind) in the entire GF, only a couple times when he was cornering or being cornered, and he won. Nothing against @NoDoubt, these were very competitive close fights and I also believe he's beaten Shock before.

kung lao can otg jps gjabbers all the way + cross over div kicks into throw traps. in addition, if someone plays only with karajabs/gjabs against a skilled player, they would always lose.

 

[Juggs]

Edited the OP to make this thread make more sense. There’s been a bit more notoriety with UMK3 lately, especially with people like JWong playing and being interested in the game, and even trying to setup a tournament for it on fightcade. I feel like the GJ debate is still the biggest I guess “divide” in the community. So I really felt like bumping this thread would help at least in some way.