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UMK3 Tier List Discussion (2022)

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
clHPHPdHP is the best string in the game. It is a 4f special high that hits mid most of the time. 4f Glitch Jab OS launcher is laughable. Combine this with Scream sweep punish and its absurd.

Her HP is a special high on over half the cast and has crazy priority. Good luck beating her HP jabs in neutral without FA.

She traps over half of the cast in the corner crouching.

Ridiculous damage with scream loops, fly cancel infinites, near universal relaunch with GC.

Character is actually broken
If it has anything to do with frame data, I probably won’t know the specifics. I know from experience what’s punishable and what not, but I don’t have access to any frame data as I’ve mentioned before. Also something else I said recently, I also haven’t played in what like 6+ years or so now?

But yeah, I knew she could do the OS, I definitely didn’t know how good her version of it was and of course didn’t know the frame data. For sweep punishes, can you consistently do them online? Because I’ve never been able to. Sindel’s in particular is a lot more difficult imo because you have to be buffering the multi forward input, so you essentially have to predict a sweep because if you’re just blocking and buffering ff then you’ll get thrown. But yeah, I’ve always said both Sindel and Sonya are underrated, as well as Stryker but only in specific matchups. I’d say my Sonya is better but only because I have more experience with her, but anyway that’s besides the point.

Anyway, I appreciate the info. Also, do you have a list of all the frame data or do you just know some specific frame data? Back when I first saw frame data for this game, I didn’t even really know what it was or how to utilize it. This was like, 13-4 years ago lol. But I haven’t been able to find any type of comprehensive frame data in forever.
 

A l i

[TAS]
clHPHPdHP is the best string in the game. It is a 4f special high that hits mid most of the time. 4f Glitch Jab OS launcher is laughable. Combine this with Scream sweep punish and its absurd.

Her HP is a special high on over half the cast and has crazy priority. Good luck beating her HP jabs in neutral without FA.

She traps over half of the cast in the corner crouching.

Ridiculous damage with scream loops, fly cancel infinites, near universal relaunch with GC.

Character is actually broken
Just saw this and i dont know what you guys are talking about. Sindel is very good character yes but outjabbing her is very very easy except for chars with shitty jabs. But let's return to Mileena matchup, Mileena is considered a counterpick to Kitana due to Kitana getting hit by Sai and Mileena having faster recovery. pop up, hk, sweep punish is actually very important tool in this matchup. also there is the fact that you can mix up sai, jab, sweep, crouching lk, sai double jabs and etc for Mileena much better to penetrate opponents jabs than Kitana who has a significantly more cooldown after her Fan is thrown before she can throw it again
 

A l i

[TAS]
If it has anything to do with frame data, I probably won’t know the specifics. I know from experience what’s punishable and what not, but I don’t have access to any frame data as I’ve mentioned before. Also something else I said recently, I also haven’t played in what like 6+ years or so now?

But yeah, I knew she could do the OS, I definitely didn’t know how good her version of it was and of course didn’t know the frame data. For sweep punishes, can you consistently do them online? Because I’ve never been able to. Sindel’s in particular is a lot more difficult imo because you have to be buffering the multi forward input, so you essentially have to predict a sweep because if you’re just blocking and buffering ff then you’ll get thrown. But yeah, I’ve always said both Sindel and Sonya are underrated, as well as Stryker but only in specific matchups. I’d say my Sonya is better but only because I have more experience with her, but anyway that’s besides the point.

Anyway, I appreciate the info. Also, do you have a list of all the frame data or do you just know some specific frame data? Back when I first saw frame data for this game, I didn’t even really know what it was or how to utilize it. This was like, 13-4 years ago lol. But I haven’t been able to find any type of comprehensive frame data in forever.
both Sindel and Mileena punishes are easily doable in online. you dont have to be afraid of throws when expecting a sweep or buffering because opponent would have to be extremely close to you to throw you and that distance is past beyond sweep. Mileena roll also works with buffering back. at the moment of sweep just press down and hk and you will have your punish
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
both Sindel and Mileena punishes are easily doable in online. you dont have to be afraid of throws when expecting a sweep or buffering because opponent would have to be extremely close to you to throw you and that distance is past beyond sweep. Mileena roll also works with buffering back. at the moment of sweep just press down and hk and you will have your punish
Obviously if you’re expecting a sweep you don’t have to be worried about being thrown, that should go without saying. But there’s a difference between predicting a sweep and reacting to a sweep. Also, if they’re doing a sweep that’s out of range of a throw, that of course also is a situation where you don’t have to be worried about being thrown. But again, something that really should go without saying.

I definitely can see it being done via prediction, or a combo of prediction and reaction. But I don’t believe many if any can do it online via pure reaction. Unless you have a godlike connection with one another of course. But hey, I’d love to be proven wrong.
 

A l i

[TAS]
Obviously if you’re expecting a sweep you don’t have to be worried about being thrown, that should go without saying. But there’s a difference between predicting a sweep and reacting to a sweep. Also, if they’re doing a sweep that’s out of range of a throw, that of course also is a situation where you don’t have to be worried about being thrown. But again, something that really should go without saying.

I definitely can see it being done via prediction, or a combo of prediction and reaction. But I don’t believe many if any can do it online via pure reaction. Unless you have a godlike connection with one another of course. But hey, I’d love to be proven wrong.
In Mame connection is great in terms of not lagging and etc. There is frame delay obviously but up to 3 frames it is possible to play in the very highest level. I myself won the tournament in russian commune last month only using reptile. But mileena rolls are easy to punish by reaction due to buffering. It is just a muscle memory every time you advance forward with jabs you buffer back for all kinds of punishes like sweep. Hk, lk. So it is very playable yeah
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
. There is frame delay obviously but up to 3 frames it is possible to play in the very highest level.
Hard disagree. I think you can definitely get used to it and have high level matches, but you absolutely cannot play at the “very highest level” online, specifically in 3 frames of delay.
 

A l i

[TAS]
Hard disagree. I think you can definitely get used to it and have high level matches, but you absolutely cannot play at the “very highest level” online, specifically in 3 frames of delay.
I won the last UMK3 tournament in Russia where the best players play. Check this out. 3 frame delay for sidenote.
 

nwo

Noob
I won the last UMK3 tournament in Russia where the best players play. Check this out. 3 frame delay for sidenote.
If you played a clone of yourself that had 1 frame of delay and you had 3 frames, the clone should win easy. And if not, you're not playing at the highest level.
 

A l i

[TAS]
If you played a clone of yourself that had 1 frame of delay and you had 3 frames, the clone should win easy. And if not, you're not playing at the highest level.
Clone would win maybe, but it would be nowhere near easy. Of course 1 frame is always gonna be better than 3. But it does not mean 3 frame is impossible for a very high level of umk. Very high level of umk means you can lose for a single mistake. I will give you an example. In tournament, i played vs lots of guys with 1 frame but since my main is Reptile, after i start a combo, it does not matter how many delays my opponent has. Or there are moments where if you can read your opponent better, you can win as well. Check out the link and you will know what i am talking about. Also i saw one of your old posts where you were talking about removing another 1-2 input delay from MAME, any updates on that?
 

nwo

Noob
Clone would win maybe, but it would be nowhere near easy. Of course 1 frame is always gonna be better than 3. But it does not mean 3 frame is impossible for a very high level of umk. Very high level of umk means you can lose for a single mistake. I will give you an example. In tournament, i played vs lots of guys with 1 frame but since my main is Reptile, after i start a combo, it does not matter how many delays my opponent has. Or there are moments where if you can read your opponent better, you can win as well. Check out the link and you will know what i am talking about. Also i saw one of your old posts where you were talking about removing another 1-2 input delay from MAME, any updates on that?
You can counter pick the clone, or maybe the clone has a hangover? I know you can still win with 3 frames, I play with 4-5 frames. Your frame advantage / disadvantage is more apparent during close range, fast paced kombat. That's where I think you get screwed more, of course you can still zone and your execution can still be good in delay if the game is running smooth and you practice.

Removing 1-2 frames (maybe even 3) of input delay is being looked into. It would be great if a high pinger could have less input delay without desyncing the game. Or have a choice to allow it for everyone.
everything from above 0.219 shouldn't have an input delay offline more than 0.5ms, isn't it @nwo ?
I think every version from MAME 0.124 to the current version has the same input delay, if I remember right 0.99 to 0.124 had an extra frame, that's it.

There's something called Groovy MAME that has 1 maybe even 2 less frames of input delay (than the official MAME versions), it just processes the inputs in a different order and it gains 1 full frame. Theres also an "input delay" setting that supposedly gains another frame, but its somewhat demanding on your CPU and I can't verify that it actually works. I did a slow motion test with a 240fps camera and the results were not really conclusive. I used a button light on my keyboard to sync the videos and I don't think it was accurate enough.

I think the actual hardware has at least 1 frame of delay also. You press a button and there's 1 full frame that does nothing, even after its registered in MAME. One frame is like 18ms (roughly), so 0.5ms seems low.
 

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haketh

Noob
Is MAME netplay still considered better than FC right now? I know Fightcade has a lot less delay than MAME but does it run that much worse than MAME that Russia still doesn’t use it?
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I won the last UMK3 tournament in Russia where the best players play. Check this out. 3 frame delay for sidenote.
Awesome matches, and congrats, well done. It’s impressive seeing someone consistently executing Reptile’s volleys in general, but especially online. You performed very well, and like I said, you absolutely can have high level matches online. This video you linked along with so many others clearly demonstrate that. But, you cannot play at the highest levels online.

So to reiterate, you CAN play at very high levels online, but you CAN’T play at the highest levels online.
 

nwo

Noob
Is MAME netplay still considered better than FC right now? I know Fightcade has a lot less delay than MAME but does it run that much worse than MAME that Russia still doesn’t use it?
Most Russian players are on MAME and most USA players are on MAME. We don't have many players compared to Russia though. MAME is better, unless you're playing some super long distance matches.
 

MRIGOTBASS

SKYPE: igotbass
Most Russian players are on MAME and most USA players are on MAME. We don't have many players compared to Russia though. MAME is better, unless you're playing some super long distance matches.
All Russian players are on 54fps MAME, 0% and I mean 0 USA players play real speed Juggs or Ultimate Cup on Mame 60fps only. I mean 1000% No USA players play the real version 54fps on MAME. 8-12 total players play Mame in usa servers half of those are not even from the US the other 6 are scrubs like nwo magister cd with a few good players like ddy and cien rounding out that crew. There are literally 1000s of Kombateers on fightcade its more or less where the normal folk dwell.

All players have moved to fightcade, its modern technology it has ggpo it has way less frame delay it has rankings, it just took over the scene. 100s of players availability 24/7 vs the same 6 people playing fake mk on mame in the USA.
 

A l i

[TAS]
Awesome matches, and congrats, well done. It’s impressive seeing someone consistently executing Reptile’s volleys in general, but especially online. You performed very well, and like I said, you absolutely can have high level matches online. This video you linked along with so many others clearly demonstrate that. But, you cannot play at the highest levels online.

So to reiterate, you CAN play at very high levels online, but you CAN’T play at the highest levels online.
You are mistaken about one thing. If one has the skills to play at highest level, has 3 delay, he can easily win someone with 0 delay with counterpicks. of course mirror matches will be in favor of the guy with 0 frame but after some point. it really doesn't matter. For example in a matchup like Kabal Sheeva, Kabal player can win even with 4 delay. You can have 0 delay with any Ninja, Jax, Stryker, Subzeros, and etc vs Reptile with 3-4 frame and once you make a single mistake, after combo starts, it wont matter who has how much delay. But of course two guys with absolute same skill with different connect in mirror match, whoever has better connection has more chance to win. But if we talk about freepick, counterpicks are more of an advantage than frame
 

nwo

Noob
There are literally 1000s of Kombateers on fightcade its more or less where the normal folk dwell.
Yeah, like "Magisters FiFi"?
But of course two guys with absolute same skill with different connect in mirror match, whoever has better connection has more chance to win. But if we talk about freepick, counterpicks are more of an advantage than frame
Frame delay is more important than a tier list or even counter picking IMO. Whoever has less delay can just rush you down, be glued to you like white on rice and there's NOTHING you can do about it (assuming same skill level).

And I'm not saying that you can't win fights, but maybe like a ft10 you'll never win. It's like you running a marathon with a 10 pound weight on your back vs yourself without the 10 pound weight, why in FUCK would you ever win with a 10 pound weight? You wouldn't.
 
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A l i

[TAS]
Yeah, like "Magisters FiFi"?

Frame delay is more important than a tier list or even counter picking IMO. Whoever has less delay can just rush you down, be glued to you like white on rice and there's NOTHING you can do about it (assuming same skill level).

And I'm not saying that you can't win fights, but maybe like a ft10 you'll never win. It's like you running a marathon with a 10 pound weight on your back vs yourself without the 10 pound weight, why in FUCK would you ever win with a 10 pound weight? You wouldn't.
I advise you to learn about 7th frame standup jabs, then you will understand why pressure doesnt work
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
You are mistaken about one thing. If one has the skills to play at highest level, has 3 delay, he can easily win someone with 0 delay with counterpicks.
A top player can win any given match, or any given set, despite the obstacles. But we’re not discussing what’s “possible”, we’re discussing what’s “probable”. In your hypothetical, If the skills between the 2 players are relatively equal, the player with 0 delay is going to win far more often than the player with 3 frames of delay. This does not mean that the player with 3 frames of delay can’t beat the player with 0 delay, but they’re at such a massive disadvantage that it’s very very unlikely (again, this is within the hypothetical of them being equal or at least close to equal in skill). You can try to mitigate the gap of that disadvantage by counterpicking, but firstly, that heavily depends on the characters being used. But, even if the counterpick is a 7-3 matchup, that’s not going to close the gap as much as you’d think.

But if we talk about freepick, counterpicks are more of an advantage than frame
Generally speaking, this is definitely not the case. Aside from what I mentioned above, having worse frame/button delay than your opponent, especially if the difference is 3 frames or more, with all else being equal… that’s the biggest disadvantage there is especially in UMK3. Again, just to reiterate once again, this is if we’re talking about 2 players of relatively equal skill.

Also, when it comes to being a high level or top player, being able to adapt to online delay varies greatly from player to player. For instance, let’s say you have player X and player Y. Offline, player X consistently beats player Y, around 8-2 or so. But player X isn’t good at adapting to online play and specifically the frame & button delay. So when player X & Y play online, player Y consistently beats player X 6-4 or so. And the thing is, there doesn’t even have to be a big disparity in delay between the 2 players, or even one at all. Adapting to online frame delay is a completely different skill than anything else in UMK3, and something you don’t even encounter offline (unless there’s frame/button delay with whatever device you’re playing on of course. But that kind of stuff is typically worked out before actual matches start being played). And it’s a skill that, to be frank, really has nothing to do with being a good UMK3 player or not.

Hope this helps and clears things up.
 
I’ve been thinking about the tier list again recently, and have revised my own a bit. I think this revised tier list is a lot more accurate than my previous one. But I also want your thoughts on it, as well as your own tier lists. I’ll provide the link to the template below

View attachment 18812



I think the most “controversial” placements on my tier list will probably be Classic Sub being so low, and Jade being so high. Other than that, I feel like this is a really solid tier list for this game in 2022. I feel Sonya is underrated which is why I have her at 7th just behind Nightwolf. I also believe Stryker can be a pocket character for certain MU’s which makes him kinda underrated. But I wouldn’t start out using Stryker even if it’s in those specific MU’s I’d use him in. In a tournament setting, It would only be if I lost convincingly would I pull him out. I could see and argument for Jax moving back/down slightly, but he’s just too solid in the current meta imo. I of course firmly believe Kabal is in a tier of his own at the top, but I also believe HSmoke is in a tier of his own just below Kabal. I’ve seen some people like @ded mention that they don’t feel like Ermac is in the top 3 (or top 4 even), and would love to hear not only the reasoning behind that, but also where they’d place him and also who would be taking his place.

Oh and the biggest changes from my previous tier list was firstly moving up Reptile. I forgot to factor in his invisibility which makes him a much deadlier character. Invisibility is why I have Robot Smoke so high as well. Robot Smoke while invisible could be S tier and maybe even S+ tier. While Reptile while invisible could easily move up to A+ tier. This is why I had to move him up to just outside the top 10. I also moved Kung Lao up a bit. Even though I feel he’s one of the most overrated characters in the game, the fact that he can punish things like a blocked Kabal dash with an infinite as well as his mobility in general, I had to move him up a few spots.