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Ultimate Frost analysis, things that need to change

Wigy

There it is...
Frost start up isn’t super fast on those moves if you think she’s gonna wait a minute then f2 or w/e just chill whiff punish. Not like she can do that shit on reaction when Kotal goes in.
Her d4 is reasonably quick and blows up all his moves that move in except the mid of you mistime your d4.

If other characters can low check him moving in as so many kotal players complain about on here (that's all I gotta go off and my own MU exp) then she sure as hell can do it.

Then you mix in d4 spin/grenade well. It's a nightmare for a lot of characters
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Her d4 is reasonably quick and blows up all his moves that move in except the mid of you mistime your d4.

If other characters can low check him moving in as so many kotal players complain about on here (that's all I gotta go off and my own MU exp) then she sure as hell can do it.

Then you mix in d4 spin/grenade well. It's a nightmare for a lot of characters
That could be true from the right range her d4 is dope. One thing about that char that seems limiting is d4 range is godlike but slow as all hell, and d3 is fast but not only is short range but has some wonky ass hitbox almost like a mid.
 

Wigy

There it is...
i'd like to add that D4 recovery is VERY bad, so whiff punishing it is not out of the question
She's ducking in recovery. I think hed have to punish with his mid or low. Tricky with how slow

Theory here idk. Just seems she can exploit the weaknesses kotal has more than others and he doesn't have oppressive pressure or machine gun pokes, which is her two big issues imo.
 

Xzyj

Noob
She's ducking in recovery. I think hed have to punish with his mid or low. Tricky with how slow

Theory here idk. Just seems she can exploit the weaknesses kotal has more than others and he doesn't have oppressive pressure or machine gun pokes, which is her two big issues imo.
in my experience this matchup comes to reads only pretty much, you both can't whiff your best advancing mids in neutral because you both get whiff punished easy, upclose he can't open you up without command grabs but you can short hop on a read to beat command throw with a full combo so when both know the matchup i think it comes down to just weird dashing around scared to throw any moves besides occasional projectiles and then upclose guessing game where Frost has slight advantage imo due to how much damage she does from her combos compared to kotal combos/command throw damage, but it's still a guess, you have to commit to very unsafe options (such as jump and hop) because his command throw is mid, and it never feels nice to try and read it and getting destroyed by other normals doing that
 

JSF

Waiting for Injustice 3
I was referring more to the 2nd post assuming kotal is all yolo.

The matchup is most probably either even or in kotals favor, but my only matchup experience is my training partner's week 2 frost so I won't say anything beyond that.
Ah I see what you mean. He Does out range her but eh if she can get her game going what’s his answer?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Ah I see what you mean. He Does out range her but eh if she can get her game going what’s his answer?
Her zoning is not a real issue tbh and her offense is full of holes. He has a command grab, faster pokes, longer Reach without holes and better jump attacks. Totemic also outlames her for free, she has to come to him since her zoning chip is laughable.
 
Reactions: JSF

JSF

Waiting for Injustice 3
Her zoning is not a real issue tbh and her offense is full of holes. He has a command grab, faster pokes, longer Reach without holes and better jump attacks. Totemic also outlames her for free, she has to come to him since her zoning chip is laughable.
He can’t outzone her ever. He does have longer reach but with a high and a really slow kid so she can play the mid range game with him. Up close he has her beat for sure tho I agree
 

haketh

Noob
Id' love to run a long set vs Kotal to have us get a better look at what the MU Is actually like when I'm not extremely busy with work
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
He can’t outzone her ever. He does have longer reach but with a high and a really slow kid so she can play the mid range game with him. Up close he has her beat for sure tho I agree
In neutral they're even, considering her D4, not her F2 or B22 which are heavily flawed.

Long range she wins vs ascension, loses vs totemic.

Up close she loses badly.
 
Reactions: JSF

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I'm from EU but i'd be up for games from NA as well, even if it's gonna be bad for me bc of zoning.
 

JSF

Waiting for Injustice 3
In neutral they're even, considering her D4, not her F2 or B22 which are heavily flawed.

Long range she wins vs ascension, loses vs totemic.

Up close she loses badly.
Ah I see what you’re saying and I agree, I’ve only played against totemic twice so i gotta take your word on that one
 
I really want to see this Frost vs Kotal matchup. I honestly want to see how Kotal deals withs frost's zoning. I
also agree that her d4 is heavily flawed. It has great range, but if it doesn't hit depending on what ranged it gets blocked its punishable and on whiff the recovery is so long its any easy full combo punish for any character with decent range.
f2 is just as risky but the range on that move is serious and you get decent OKI on hit, 0 ON block, similar start up to b2 . so the opponent has to make the read to neutral crouch or hold it.
 

Wigy

There it is...
I really want to see this Frost vs Kotal matchup. I honestly want to see how Kotal deals withs frost's zoning. I
also agree that her d4 is heavily flawed. It has great range, but if it doesn't hit depending on what ranged it gets blocked its punishable and on whiff the recovery is so long its any easy full combo punish for any character with decent range.
f2 is just as risky but the range on that move is serious and you get decent OKI on hit, 0 ON block, similar start up to b2 . so the opponent has to make the read to neutral crouch or hold it.
F2 is usually a little plus on block because it has long active frames and you shouldn't be using it in a range to land it at the start of the active frames but isnt an actual high. I think the whole cast can crouch block it.
 

JSF

Waiting for Injustice 3
I really want to see this Frost vs Kotal matchup. I honestly want to see how Kotal deals withs frost's zoning. I
also agree that her d4 is heavily flawed. It has great range, but if it doesn't hit depending on what ranged it gets blocked its punishable and on whiff the recovery is so long its any easy full combo punish for any character with decent range.
f2 is just as risky but the range on that move is serious and you get decent OKI on hit, 0 ON block, similar start up to b2 . so the opponent has to make the read to neutral crouch or hold it.
ill try to record some matches if i find any solid kotal players willing to run it or someone in KL.
her f2 is really bad against someone who knows the matchup because if they do there is no reason to not neutral duck if theyre outside of b2 range so youll get punished for it easily.
 

Xzyj

Noob
ill try to record some matches if i find any solid kotal players willing to run it or someone in KL.
her f2 is really bad against someone who knows the matchup because if they do there is no reason to not neutral duck if theyre outside of b2 range so youll get punished for it easily.
that doesn't render move being "really bad" though, if you're making people duck in the neutral halfway across the screen just for you having a move - that's a strong move, just don't use it randomly or to close the gap
 

Wigy

There it is...
that doesn't render move being "really bad" though, if you're making people duck in the neutral halfway across the screen just for you having a move - that's a strong move, just don't use it randomly or to close the gap
It can be crouch blocked and will still whiff.

I just use it to catch people moving in after a blocked grenade or when I absolutely know someone will jump/backdash

Also very useful against corner jump outs for a punish
 

Wigy

There it is...
Sure, but you're still restricting their movement just by having that move.
What do you mean about corner jump outs?
It's not worth the risk to just throw out so doesn't really condition much. Gotta use it like a slower shadow kick.

When they use corner jump interactables theyre often way out of reach so you can f2 punish it in recovery.
 
It's not worth the risk to just throw out so doesn't really condition much. Gotta use it like a slower shadow kick.

When they use corner jump interactables theyre often way out of reach so you can f2 punish it in recovery.
F2 is definitely more play style dependent. It definitely keeps teleport happy players in check and its beats erron blacks drop kick move after start up frames. I don't know cetrions frames on boulder but I catch centrion with f2 damn near on reaction at mid range distance. f2 is also a good way to escape tele mind games that lao and kang have, you can f2 on reaction when they tele. in my opinion its worth the risk
 

Wigy

There it is...
F2 is definitely more play style dependent. It definitely keeps teleport happy players in check and its beats erron blacks drop kick move after start up frames. I don't know cetrions frames on boulder but I catch centrion with f2 damn near on reaction at mid range distance. f2 is also a good way to escape tele mind games that lao and kang have, you can f2 on reaction when they tele. in my opinion its worth the risk
Agreed, it's fantastic against cetrion

Lao you can just d3 or move away for more damage at less risk.

Kang, you aren't reacting to that and if you can better to NJP
 
I probably have to practice my d3 timing on lao but Im always getting beat out by that grab. but at this point in time I made f2 a habit as my escape tool out of tele mind games. Its also been times when i missed or was late with my f2 on reaction it turned into b22 full combo lol ( not sure if It was fighting cetrion, Raiden or Kang.)