TOP 5 (after patch)

[Basic Stupidity]

Not one mention of Darkseid even though he got no nerfs and the characters above him all did?

Nice to see everyone catching up to reality finally lul.

his main bad MUs didnt get nerfed and characters he recently beat got buffed into being close to beating him its not a surprise. cant say the same for flash tho...

 

[untitledsix]

Based off the fact that this entire thread isn't based off anything yet you ask me to elaborate? I'll elaborate .

-She's a hard counter for at least 4 characters now (Canary, Catwoman, Cold, Batman, possibly sub zero, possibly Flash)
-Counters every top 5 posted in this thread besides super girl, fate, Adam
-Has no overwhelming mu's if anything her 4-6's are only slightly in the opponent favor
-Has 0 hard counters herself

It's amazing how literally everything in this post is untrue.

 

[Cerbero]

Fixed Adam for ya.

He has mids, they’re just not that great.

 

[Vengeance135]

Okay i'm about to ramble about seb of da 0.

Basically anything he does can be hit confirmed into 40%, if you block then he'll have a mind game of mb burst, regular burst, or clone. It's impossible to react and punish clone on this game since burst is good enough to use frequently. Clone is also 8 frames so there's that.

For awhile Sub was this honest boy. Buffalo was winning but he was winning by winning neutral with clone and ice ball, and broke jump ins, good mids, etc. Recently Raptor found a true mix up off of mb command grab, using jump 2 or jump 3. It's essentially level 3 trait Firestorm stuff, on a character that is never unsafe and has considerably better neutral than Firestorm. He can also get this started off of his f3, which would probably be the best f3 in the game if Cheetah didn't exist.

Sub's only possible weaknesses imo are lack of real mix ups and anti airs. As I explained above, the first weakness no longer exists. The 2nd one is whatever since he has an 8 frame clone with almost no cool down.

People say "oh well X and Y string is unsafe", but why would Sub need to use anything outside of the standing 1 strings or f22? Imagine if I said Superman is bad because of a string that isn't f23. Like all he needs is f23.

What am I missing here? Great mid that can be hit confirmed into 40%, block confirmed into safety or plus frames. Super duper pooper broke jump in. Top 5 damage. 8 frame clone, giving him corner lockdown in a lot of match ups, and also one of the best counterpoking tools in the game. Also air clone is ridiculously good at baiting trip guards.

Top 5 wake up free as fuck. When people think of slide, they think, oh well it's not Possessed Kenshi, or Mystic Ermac. Where are they in this game? A fast, fully invincible low, for no meter? That's cheap asf in this game.

MB ice ball makes zoning risky for a decent amount of characters. Slide also recovers in 15 frames on whiff, so if spaced correctly, he can use it to get in on zoning easily.

He also has little mix ups like air hammer or b11 off of jump ins. 111 or 113.

I think he's probably top 3, just behind Catwoman and Black Adam. If you don't agree with me, that's cool. All i'll say is that if you don't think he's top 10 at least, hit up Buffalo or Sweet Neptune for games.

Finally some top tier player agrees with me. I've been saying sub zero was been slept on since his release. The dudes in my discord laughed at me. About time people wake up!

 

[Vengeance135]

Probably and this is in no particular order
Joker
Firestorm
Catwoman
Cheetah
supergirl

Lol at joker

 

[New York Pizza]

It's amazing how literally everything in this post is untrue.

It's amazing how much you just proved your point with so much detail.

 

[untitledsix]

It's amazing how much you just proved your point with so much detail.

On my phone: she doesn't hard counter catwoman batman cold or flash. All of these are 5-5 and she maybe beats cold. She also has at least 7 bad mus maybe more. You didn't give an in depth analysis on why for some reason you think these things, so I can't really critique then.

 

[New York Pizza]

It's amazing how literally everything in this post is untrue.

Let me kill 2 birds with one stone and A) teach you how to counter an argument and B) further elaborate on my original point which you think is "literally" untrue.
1. Canary vs wowo: Universally understood as 3-7 Since first mu evaluations started for the game. Canary has the hardest time getting in against wowo, who is a counter character. No mid screen options. No full screen options besides level 3 trait. No reliable aa for wowo s ji3. Can't keep her in the corner. Can't punish shield bash at -33 besides level 3 trait. Can't jump. You get it. Catwoman has better options to get in but a competent wowo can avoid her and even counter her pressure, because again, she's a counter character. Batman is a new one since the most recent patch. No zoning, only helps her bulid meter for free. Just like catwoman has options to get in but none of his frame traps are much of a threat she can backdash block or pushblock back to neutral. Ji2 was nerfed she can aa better. She can corner him for days. She holds the neutral. She's not so much worried about trait she can either parry or block or again push block. She's a hard shell to crack because again, she's a counter character.
2. She's a counter character. Best defense in the game. Owns neutral against most top tiers. Red hood can't zone for free or mix easily. Can't keep her in the corner naturally without a reliable set up. Best pokes that combos. Top tier footsies in a footsie oriented game. Top tier jumps in a game that favors jump characters. Half screen punishes that combos. This applies to redwood Catwoman, as well as the buffed chars like firestorm (even before and now). Push block is 100% in her favor against pressure chars and she Wil always have a bar
3. Losing mus revolve around hard zoning and chars that slightly beat her in neural. Gl fate ivy and 2 others I forgot. None of these scenarios she can't work against it's just a matter of reads and proper spacing, nothing really hard to manage.
4. No hard counters because again, she's a counter character, the best counter character in the game.

 

[Vigilante24]

I don't understand why people think Red Hood is no longer top 5. Everything that made him top 5 in the previous patch is still intact. Unlike Batman and Deadshot whose nerfs drastically altered their playstyles, Red Hood still plays exactly the same as before.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I don't understand why people think Red Hood is no longer top 5. Everything that made him top 5 in the previous patch is still intact. Unlike Batman and Deadshot whose nerfs drastically altered their playstyles, Red Hood still plays exactly the same as before.

People just see “nerf” and automatically think the character is bad before using their brain. It’s common here. The real ones know what’s up.

Catwoman is a prime example.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

On my phone: she doesn't hard counter catwoman batman cold or flash. All of these are 5-5 and she maybe beats cold. She also has at least 7 bad mus maybe more. You didn't give an in depth analysis on why for some reason you think these things, so I can't really critique then.

What? She DESTROYS Canary, Flash, Robin, Scarecrow at least

I personally think she beats Catwoman, even tho Catwoman has a way easier time than the characters above so it's just a slight advantage.

I actually thought Cold was 5-5 pre-patch, but not sure now.

It's funny because you said she goes even with characters she destroys but she beats Cold who is probably the character who does the best against her in that list.

Also she only loses to Green Lantern, Black Adam, Starfire and Firestorm. Fate, Supergirl, Ivy and Cyborg are other MUs some people think she might lose (I personally only think Fate and Supergirl are her other PROBABLE bad MUs but they are most likely going to be even at the end of the day (at least Fate)

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I don't understand why people think Red Hood is no longer top 5. Everything that made him top 5 in the previous patch is still intact. Unlike Batman and Deadshot whose nerfs drastically altered their playstyles, Red Hood still plays exactly the same as before.

Just because they can't abuse that one scrubby move as much as before they think he is no longer top 5 but his MU chart is probably exactly the same lol.
He got away easy just like Supergirl, Adam and Catwoman so I don't see how people think he is a different character at all.

 

[methademic]

I don't understand why people think Red Hood is no longer top 5. Everything that made him top 5 in the previous patch is still intact. Unlike Batman and Deadshot whose nerfs drastically altered their playstyles, Red Hood still plays exactly the same as before.

Because he wasn't top 5 before

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Because he wasn't top 5 before

Lul

 

[Juggs]

I saw where @SonicFox5000 has Black Manta is his top 5 tier list. Very surprising to me, I haven’t even seen anyone use him on a serious level yet.

 

[Red Hood MKX]

Im just glad people are done bitching about batman

My top 5 no order

Supergirl
Black adam
Flash
Fate
Catwoman

 

[Moms4lif3]

Tier lists are always kinda subjective (although they shouldn't be) but I really don't understand when people don't have Catwoman, Supergirl or Black Adam on their list. Whether all 3 are actually top 5 is debatable but if none of them are in there I just wonder what game you've been playing.

 

[untitledsix]

What? She DESTROYS Canary, Flash, Robin, Scarecrow at least

I personally think she beats Catwoman, even tho Catwoman has a way easier time than the characters above so it's just a slight advantage.

I actually thought Cold was 5-5 pre-patch, but not sure now.

It's funny because you said she goes even with characters she destroys but she beats Cold who is probably the character who does the best against her in that list.

Also she only loses to Green Lantern, Black Adam, Starfire and Firestorm. Fate, Supergirl, Ivy and Cyborg are other MUs some people think she might lose (I personally only think Fate and Supergirl are her other PROBABLE bad MUs but they are most likely going to be even at the end of the day (at least Fate)

I never argued she didn't destroy Canary Robin or Scarecrow.

 

[AkioOf100]

Beetle is top #1 :^)

on a srs note i dont know who the top tier is aside from like supergirl and red hood and black adam.
i just play the chars i like from the comics. i.e.: beetle, manta.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I never argued she didn't destroy Canary Robin or Scarecrow.

Canary was the only one in Pizza's list out of all those characters and you did argue about Flash. Flash is nowhere near even tbh

 

[untitledsix]

Canary was the only one in Pizza's list out of all those characters and you did argue about Flash. Flash is nowhere near even tbh

You're confused? Pizza said WW was a hard counter to Canary Flash Batman Catwoman Sub and Cold. And I argued she wasn't a hard counter to Flash Batman Catwoman or Cold. She does beat Flash but it's nowhere near a hard counter.

 

[AkioOf100]

there aren't a lot of hard counters in this game. hard counter imo = 7-3. i cant find any 7-3 match ups.

 

[untitledsix]

Let me kill 2 birds with one stone and A) teach you how to counter an argument and B) further elaborate on my original point which you think is "literally" untrue.
1. Canary vs wowo: Universally understood as 3-7 Since first mu evaluations started for the game. Canary has the hardest time getting in against wowo, who is a counter character. No mid screen options. No full screen options besides level 3 trait. No reliable aa for wowo s ji3. Can't keep her in the corner. Can't punish shield bash at -33 besides level 3 trait. Can't jump. You get it. Catwoman has better options to get in but a competent wowo can avoid her and even counter her pressure, because again, she's a counter character. Batman is a new one since the most recent patch. No zoning, only helps her bulid meter for free. Just like catwoman has options to get in but none of his frame traps are much of a threat she can backdash block or pushblock back to neutral. Ji2 was nerfed she can aa better. She can corner him for days. She holds the neutral. She's not so much worried about trait she can either parry or block or again push block. She's a hard shell to crack because again, she's a counter character.
2. She's a counter character. Best defense in the game. Owns neutral against most top tiers. Red hood can't zone for free or mix easily. Can't keep her in the corner naturally without a reliable set up. Best pokes that combos. Top tier footsies in a footsie oriented game. Top tier jumps in a game that favors jump characters. Half screen punishes that combos. This applies to redwood Catwoman, as well as the buffed chars like firestorm (even before and now). Push block is 100% in her favor against pressure chars and she Wil always have a bar
3. Losing mus revolve around hard zoning and chars that slightly beat her in neural. Gl fate ivy and 2 others I forgot. None of these scenarios she can't work against it's just a matter of reads and proper spacing, nothing really hard to manage.
4. No hard counters because again, she's a counter character, the best counter character in the game.

She's a counter character... got it.

 

[Crusty]

Because he wasn't top 5 before

Red Hood was top 5 prepatch.

I'm only sketchy if he's top 5 now due to characters like scarecrow getting buffed.

However, considering how only like 3 his mus changed since then, its debatable on top 5. I'd put him at the 6th spot but I need to see how the game plays out.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Just play it with Superman vs one of those two. You can't do anything post breath, the zoning risk/reward is always bad, Superman has to hold a lot in the corner unless he gets some type of maniac air dash off, that can be read. He can't anti air Sub at all unless he jumps with him.

Sub probably loses to like Wowo, Batman and maybe a couple others. Some are bills to me. Like sure Aquaman has an advantage in the neutral, but Sub does twice as much damage as him, literally twice as much.

I think starfire beats sub as well.