Toms conversation podcast with Tigerzz

[CrimsonShadow]

Nightwolf/Sheeva is the same thing. He literally can't evade the tracking of the stomp. It's actually garbage lol

Which is why Gambler completely nullified Tigerz stomp advantage by using the armor on the Spirit of Kiba/Komo startup. Come on, man. You should at least know something about these MUs if you’re going to use them as examples.

Clearly a 9-1 in Sheeva's Favor

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Which is why Gambler completely nullified Tigerz stomp advantage by using the armor on the Spirit of Kiba/Komo startup. Come on, dude. You should at least know something about these MUs if you’re going to use them as examples.

Clearly a 9-1 in Sheeva's Favor

Crimson did you actually watch this clip?

Three stomps land.

Tigerzz does a delayed stomp at random and Gambler catches him once, where if Tigerzz had just done max delay, not only would the buff not work, Tigerzz would get a full combo punish cause Gambler would be stuck in buff recovery. He does stomp out of a string and Gambler does it again, but if Tigerzz had the awareness, it would've been a punish for Tigerzz not for Gambler. Can you please stop being an incomprehensible mouth breather for once? Do I need to produce lab videos showing that this actually doesn't work? Gambler got away with this only due to ignorance, but I guarantee you if Tigerzz labs it'll never work again. I just labbed post knockdowns, out of strings on block, in neutral etc. This is not an answer. Gambler evades what, 2 stomps out of.

I'm rewatching it again. The third stomp that Gambler armors, THAT'S A PUNISH FOR TIGERZZ if he knew that. Fourth stomp armored, that's another punish for Tigerzz.

Please stop lying Crimson. I do not understand why you're so desperate to make this game look better than it is. Nightwolf does not have an answer to the Stomp.

 

[Rude]

Crimson did you actually watch this clip?

Three stomps land.

Tigerzz does a delayed stomp at random and Gambler catches him once, where if Tigerzz had just done max delay, not only would the buff not work, Tigerzz would get a full combo punish cause Gambler would be stuck in buff recovery. He does stomp out of a string and Gambler does it again, but if Tigerzz had the awareness, it would've been a punish for Tigerzz not for Gambler. Can you please stop being an incomprehensible mouth breather for once? Do I need to produce lab videos showing that this actually doesn't work? Gambler got away with this only due to ignorance, but I guarantee you if Tigerzz labs it'll never work again. I just labbed post knockdowns, out of strings on block, in neutral etc. This is not an answer. Gambler evades what, 2 stomps out of.

I'm rewatching it again. The third stomp that Gambler armors, THAT'S A PUNISH FOR TIGERZZ if he knew that. Fourth stomp armored, that's another punish for Tigerzz.

Please stop lying Crimson. I do not understand why you're so desperate to make this game look better than it is. Nightwolf does not have an answer to the Stomp.

You seem to be forgetting that this game, even at the highest level, is played by human beings. Human beings that make mistakes and don't capitalize on everything every single time. Simply because something works in the lab(where you can replicate ideal conditions), doesn't mean it will happen 100% of the time in a real match when there's actual pressure and decisions have to be made in less than a second.

At the very least, Crimson provided tangible evidence - which you have yet to do - so there's no need to call him a mouth breather.

Instead, try to control your emotions and start backing up your claims with the objective data you demand of everyone else.

I'd still like to see you present footage of one of the actual 9-1s in this game played at the highest level. I'd like to see proof they exist in this game.

 

[Rude]

Crimson did you actually watch this clip?

Three stomps land.

Tigerzz does a delayed stomp at random and Gambler catches him once, where if Tigerzz had just done max delay, not only would the buff not work, Tigerzz would get a full combo punish cause Gambler would be stuck in buff recovery. He does stomp out of a string and Gambler does it again, but if Tigerzz had the awareness, it would've been a punish for Tigerzz not for Gambler. Can you please stop being an incomprehensible mouth breather for once? Do I need to produce lab videos showing that this actually doesn't work? Gambler got away with this only due to ignorance, but I guarantee you if Tigerzz labs it'll never work again. I just labbed post knockdowns, out of strings on block, in neutral etc. This is not an answer. Gambler evades what, 2 stomps out of.

I'm rewatching it again. The third stomp that Gambler armors, THAT'S A PUNISH FOR TIGERZZ if he knew that. Fourth stomp armored, that's another punish for Tigerzz.

Please stop lying Crimson. I do not understand why you're so desperate to make this game look better than it is. Nightwolf does not have an answer to the Stomp.

Also, Gambler completely annihilates Tigerzz in the last game. Earlier, you argued that Kabal v Sheeva in 9 couldn't have been that bad if Jeremiah could win vs Cat. Does the same logic apply here? I genuinely want to know if you think one can be true and not the other.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Crimson did you actually watch this clip?

Three stomps land.

Tigerzz does a delayed stomp at random and Gambler catches him once, where if Tigerzz had just done max delay, not only would the buff not work, Tigerzz would get a full combo punish cause Gambler would be stuck in buff recovery. He does stomp out of a string and Gambler does it again, but if Tigerzz had the awareness, it would've been a punish for Tigerzz not for Gambler. Can you please stop being an incomprehensible mouth breather for once? Do I need to produce lab videos showing that this actually doesn't work? Gambler got away with this only due to ignorance, but I guarantee you if Tigerzz labs it'll never work again. I just labbed post knockdowns, out of strings on block, in neutral etc. This is not an answer. Gambler evades what, 2 stomps out of.

I'm rewatching it again. The third stomp that Gambler armors, THAT'S A PUNISH FOR TIGERZZ if he knew that. Fourth stomp armored, that's another punish for Tigerzz.

Please stop lying Crimson. I do not understand why you're so desperate to make this game look better than it is. Nightwolf does not have an answer to the Stomp.

Credit to the gawd Gambler for defeating someone who plays Sheeva at the highest level in an unwinnable MU.

He also 3-0'ed Unjust and reset Semij 3-0 in the same tourney with an unplayable character. The man might be the next Justin Wong.

 

[Infamous718]

Credit to the gawd Gambler for defeating someone who plays Sheeva at the highest level in an unwinnable MU.

He also 3-0'ed Unjust and reset Semij 3-0 in the same tourney with an unplayable character. The man might be the next Justin Wong.

Careful those players might not be on the level of the guys he has secret conversations with

 

[Ilthuain]

What is Robocop supposed to do to actually out decision an Upgraded Jacqui or a meta Fujin? What can Robocop actually do better than those characters? How many more right decisions does Robocop have to make than the Jacqui or the Fujin? Just thinking about these things logically on paper tells the story man.

A difficult matchup isn't a 9-1. A struggle isn't a 9-1. A 9-1 is like Akuma vs. Zangief in ST, where it takes a massive error in judgment for the underdog to even have a chance of winning.

Have you seen INJ1 Zod vs. Lex? That's not even a 9-1, and there's nothing in MK11 even close to that.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Credit to the gawd Gambler for defeating someone who plays Sheeva at the highest level in an unwinnable MU.

He also 3-0'ed Unjust and reset Semij 3-0 in the same tourney with an unplayable character. The man might be the next Justin Wong.

An outlier does not carry the same weight as a statistical consistency. Gambler might just be that good Crimson, the problem comes when you have to be SO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD and better than the average in your skill bracket to make a character work. That doesn't change by a character getting buffed to have more options etc, that just increases his overall viability and flexibility in various situations. This isn't an argument.

 

[Rude]

An outlier does not carry the same weight as a statistical consistency. Gambler might just be that good Crimson, the problem comes when you have to be SO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD and better than the average in your skill bracket to make a character work. That doesn't change by a character getting buffed to have more options etc, that just increases his overall viability and flexibility in various situations. This isn't an argument.

It actually is an argument because(again) high level players are still human. They will still make the wrong read, or get conditioned and opened up by something they shouldn't, etc.

Simply because something is problematic in the lab doesn't mean it will translate 1 to 1 in real matches. Furthermore, you're trying to have it both ways. First, you want to use top players opinions and sets as objective facts, then you want to discount the results of top players because it contradicts the narrative you're trying to craft. You're the very definition of a bad faith actor.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

It actually is an argument because(again) high level players are still human. They will still make the wrong read, or get conditioned and opened up by something they shouldn't, etc.

Simply because something is problematic in the lab doesn't mean it will translate 1 to 1 in real matches. Furthermore, you're trying to have it both ways. First, you want to use top players opinions and sets as objective facts, then you want to discount the results of top players because it contradicts the narrative you're trying to craft. You're the very definition of a bad faith actor.

????

Both can be true. This isn't a contradiction.

 

[Rude]

????

Both can be true. This isn't a contradiction.

The only time you object to using sets as evidence is when it contradicts your narrative. KingGambler's performance is an "outlier" when he wins the "unwinnable" match up, but if he lost you would have used that as a smoking gun for your arguments.

This is cognitive dissonance.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

The only time you object to using sets as evidence is when it contradicts your narrative. KingGambler's performance is an "outlier" when he wins the "unwinnable" match up, but if he lost you would have used that as a smoking gun for your arguments.

This is cognitive dissonance.

Actually no it isn't, because once again, both can and would be true at the same time.

 

[Rude]

????

Both can be true. This isn't a contradiction.

When are you going to provide data or footage of the multiple 9-1s in this game that you claimed existed? I've asked several times now for proof, and the only footage I've seen is Gambler which contradicts your narrative.

 

[Rude]

Actually no it isn't, because once again, both can and would be true at the same time.

Then there's no objective way to quantify your positions, is there? Also, if both are true, then is it possible that your opinions are subjective rather than objective?

 

[Rude]

Let me ask you something, Cherny.

Earlier in the thread, you argued that Kabal vs Sheeva in MK9 couldn't be that bad because Jeremiah was able to beat Cat. Now, you're arguing that KingGambler's performance vs Tigerz doesn't change the fact that Sheeva vs Nightwolf is unwinnable.

Do you see how the logical throughline for both of these arguments are fundamentally contradictory? Both cannot be objectively true at once.

 

[Snibbor]

One topic that was touched on a little bit is something I’ve been saying for over a decade now. It objectively makes more sense to buff characters than it does to nerf characters.

As far as balance is concerned, the goal should be to make as many characters in the game as possible competitively viable. Meaning, you can use any character you want and be able to compete. The best way to do this is to have a consensus on who the top tier characters are. Then, and this part is crucial, understand why these characters are top tier. Not only what they have in their arsenal that makes them uniquely good, but what do they have in common with one another that makes them such good characters.

Then, you start implementing buffs to the consensus low tier characters to fit that criteria as closely as possible.

You never want to have a character, or multiple characters, that are top tier and really good, and then you gut them to where no one wants to play them anymore. That is not at all the direction you should ever want to go. I’m not suggesting you should never nerf any character or never nerf anything, but that should be reserved for things that are so obviously (actually) broken, or characters that far and away dominate the meta. The issue is, you have to be careful when you nerf said character. You don’t want people to completely abandon the character because anything and everything that made the character good was gutted.

I think the best way to go about this is that you START with buffs. You attempt to elevate all the low characters to fit with the mid tier characters. Once you’ve accomplished that, then you start tweaking all the mid tier characters to make them able to be competitive with the top tier. After you’ve done this, and the top tiers are still too good comparatively speaking, THEN you start implementing SLIGHT nerfs to these characters. But, that doesn’t mean you make them no longer top tier, the goal is to bridge the gap. The smaller the gap is from tier to tier and from character to character, the better the game will be overall.

As a concept it seems so obviously the right way it should be handled, I will never understand why it never seems to be the direction NRS takes the game.

Are there any fighting games you know of that adhere or have adhered to this policy of balancing?

 

[Revy]

One of my favorite videos is of GGA Jeremiah's Sheeva taking out Cat's Kabal (link). That doesn't undo the fact that the matchup is easily 7/3 in Kabal's favor.

Jeremiah had to play REO right after he beat Cat, now that set shows that it’s 7-3 in Kabal’s favour. (Link)