Tom Brady: "Winning in fighting games was more difficult in the 90s".

[M2Dave]

To sum up and paraphrase the argument, Tom states that "90%" of the competitive audience only played fighting games in the 90s, although I would like to see evidence for this assertion. The premise that he makes is that players currently have more "options" because of the ascension of other gaming genres such as first person shooters and certain strategy games. Evidence does support this claim, particularly the money that is involved in big tournaments in order to attract more players.

What do you guys think?

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I haven't watched the video yet but I would say fighting games in the 90s were probably harder to be successful at because fighting games in that era were also just straight up harder to play and understand. It's only very recent that fighters have begun receiving the same kind of treatment as other game genres in the department of tutorial, player information, and execution barrier. Also, the internet.

So yeah I would agree that games from an era of cryptic knowledge hoarding by both developers and players alike about even the most basic of shit like "what properties does this attack have?" would indeed make them harder to be successful at compared to today.

Hell, fighting games still fuck this stuff up.


That said, today we have more players than ever, which would naturally provide everyone with a lot more competition.

 

[Jynks]

This is so much bullshit.

Fighters were actually EASIER to play in the 90s at a competitive level as they were ALL, not just MK.. but all of them broken as fuck. MK2 has many infinites for example, and anyone that says MK9 wasn't completely broken is just kidding themselves.

The idea that fighting games are easier now is absolute rubbish.

 

[dribirut]

I’m sorry but this is dumb. Just by the sheer fact that more people enter tournaments and are active in the Fgc completely negates his point.

it’s the same reason players who were considered the best in the past can no longer hang. It’s not that they got worse; the competition just became better and more expansive

 

[AREZ God of War]

it’s the same reason players who were considered the best in the past can no longer hang. It’s not that they got worse; the competition just became better and more expansive

If that was the case why were the same people always in top 8-16 when there were sooooooo many other people using these same exact broken characters?? M2Dave's Freddy is a perfect example... Why? Cuz NOBODY ELSE accepted he was good based on his zoning as staple and thus played him incorrectly. Despite all the criticism, M2Dave was the only Freddy consistently dominating with him where others failed.

We can use Brady's Sub-Zero as an example too because everyone knows Sub was a top 5 character

 

[M2Dave]

That said, today we have more players than ever, which would naturally provide everyone with a lot more competition.

But Tom is claiming the opposite, for which there is no evidence. He is saying that there was more participation in the old fighting game community from more players, or at least more quality players.

This argument makes little sense. There is more information, more money, and more exposure to fighting games than ever before. Why would winning back in the day be harder? LOL.

 

[Marinjuana]

I played a lot of Halo 2 back in the day. Most people were trash, especially early on. Like, they didn't know how to move the camera around levels of trash. Dual analog first person shooters were a newer thing and online FPS's were as well, at least to most console gamers who would get in on the Halo 2 hype train. There was a ranking system but the general skill level of play was so low compared to literally any modern shooter. Your randoms that you find in a CoD game would be teabagging the randoms in ancient Halo 2 days even without Halo experience, every gamer just knows how to play these games now. Obviously there was good players and people learned the game as time went on but you'll never see that low ass level of play being rampant again in a mainstream shooter, it's been 16 years of shooters since the Halo 2 days. Even the casual gamers can see Ninja streaming Fortnite to get an idea of what to do. This is just like fighters, it's been 28 years of fighting games and everyone has a greater pool of knowledge to draw from. We're all standing on the shoulder of the scrubs that came before us.

There's also accessibility, most fighters these days are more intuitive and easier to pick up for casual players. Halo 2 was the same way, you can play it today and expect more blowouts and cheap shit then you can in newer Halos, it was oldschool hardcore. But back to fighters, you can play it online. It's hard to imagine in 2020 that you wouldn't be able to play a fighting game online even if it's with bunk netcode. You had to go out and socialize.

On the other hand, it's logical to think that the competition is tougher than it's ever been for a lot of these games with larger playerbases and larger cash prizes. So, I'd say that it's probably more difficult to win tournaments today than before. It's a very interesting prompt. It's definitely easier to get on the ground floor of understanding how to win these days though.

 

[M2Dave]

M2Dave's Freddy is a perfect example... Why? Cuz NOBODY ELSE accepted he was good based on his zoning as staple and thus played him incorrectly. Despite all the criticism, M2Dave was the only Freddy consistently dominating with him where others failed.

We can use Brady's Sub-Zero as an example too because everyone knows Sub was a top 5 character

I genuinely appreciate the props, but most Freddy players did not even know the basics of zoning. Clint was the only other Freddy player who had some success. Considering how strong the character was, the results would have been different in the current NRS community. More than ever before, people have
access to information that they can utilize to improve their general understanding of the game, their match up knowledge, their combos, etc., all of which lead to superior competition in tournaments.

I just do not buy this argument. I am all ears, though.

 

[AREZ God of War]

But Tom is claiming the opposite, for which there is no evidence. He is saying that there was more participation in the old fighting game community from more players, or at least more quality players.

This argument makes little sense. There is more information, more money, and more exposure to fighting games than ever before. Why would winning back in the day be harder? LOL.

There's certainly more tournament players now but I'm not sure there are more people playing FGs in general than before... but I have to agree with the games being quite different..... possibly in some wild theory of mine giving current players more confidence to feel it's worth it to travel to more tournaments (?)

Not going to lie, some of the competition from top players 10-15 years ago was just flat-out intimidating and even good players (i say only "good", not elite or a jedi), like myself started 2nd-guessing whether i even stood a chance 10 minutes after I got there

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This argument is ridiculous.

And I’ve told Tom that 3-4 times on the phone.. As recently as last week.

Tom has become that 65-year-old “back in my day” guy. He’s sitting on the porch rocking back and forth and telling kids stories about The Good Old days.

But in all seriousness, it’s hard to take someone seriously when all of their arguments are constructed to benefit themself. To think that EVO was more difficult when tournaments had 100 players instead of 1000 players armed with meta info and frame data.. That’s a stretch indeed.

 

[NaCl man]

Yeah Nah...
I am unfortunately old enough to have played in the arcade scene and knowledge was not shared as freely as it is now. Nobody was sharing tips because it cost money to play.

This is one of those "you youngsters aint bad but back in my day you would have no chance" speeches that reaks of self love and comes from the same thought process that has marvel 2 at evo.

 

[AREZ God of War]

This argument is ridiculous.

And I’ve told Tom that 3-4 times on the phone.. As recently as last week.

Tom has become that 65-year-old “back in my day” guy. He’s sitting on the porch rocking back and forth and telling kids stories about The Good Old days.

But in all seriousness, it’s hard to take someone seriously when all of their arguments are constructed to benefit themself. To think that EVO was more difficult when tournaments had 100 players instead of 1000 players armed with meta info and frame data.. That’s a stretch indeed.

Do you really think top players now vs top players today would be the same if MK12 was basically a revamped MK9? MK9 was much harder to be good at, execution was ridiculous and you couldn't win unless you played perfect. The execution barrier of today's games is so toned down because they HAVE TO appeal to more people or they just won't sell anything.

People aren't better for playing watered-down games of monotony.

 

[M2Dave]

Not going to lie, some of the competition from top players 10-15 years ago was just flat-out intimidating and even good players (i say only "good", not elite or a jedi), like myself started 2nd-guessing whether i even stood a chance 10 minutes after I got there.

The competition has improved dramatically since Mortal Kombat 9, not to mention since the mid 90s. I encourage people to correct me if I am wrong, but a more accurate assessment of the early fighting game scene is that a small minority of players who spent lots of money and time in the arcades dominated while all other players were average at best. The internet did not exist so there was no access to information. You could not improve unless you wasted lots of coins.

Do you really think top players now vs top players today would be the same if MK12 was basically a revamped MK9? MK9 was much harder to be good at, execution was ridiculous and you couldn't win unless you played perfect. The execution barrier of today's games is so toned down because they HAVE TO appeal to more people or they just won't sell anything.

People aren't better for playing watered-down games of monotony.

I agree that back in the day certain fighting games required more execution (i.e., just frames, one frame links, no execution shortcuts for special moves, etc.), but the games lacked quality, particularly with respect to balance. You say you have to play "perfect" to win in Mortal Kombat 9, yet the best characters in the game ignore 85%+ of the roster. So the best players eventually master the most broken 4-5 characters regardless of execution barriers and the game becomes boring and monotonous. People, including me, quit playing Mortal Kombat 9 for this reason. Besides, fighting against 90%+ combos, infinite armor, variable frame data, several bugs and glitches, etc. is not what most people would consider "fun". Almost all of the old fighting games (i.e., 3s, MvC2, Tekken Tag 1, etc.) suffered from the same issues.

 

[Inzzane_79]

Why do people listen to this dude?

 

[Nevan_PTF]

^I'm with him! Why are we still listening to that guy? smh

 

[Son ov Timett]

Back in the 90s you had to walk 10 miles in the snow to attend a tournament. Nowadays ye just accept a bunch of donations via paypal, have a car waiting for ye at the airport, and show up to pools to represent your legion of adoring fans.

Brady bless.

 

[UGL Preon]

Its easier to be good now.
There's too many tools out there to suck at video games. Guides, Speedruns with readily available how to guides, Top Player streams/VoDs, NEW TOURNAMENTS almost every other week. Plus the LAB has so many features making learning easier than ever. Hell even the MK11 RECORDED MATCHES have the Frame data listed in match. Back in the day there were a very VERY select few who really knew what the grind was truly about. You had to go out of your way to lab certain things. Sometimes ducktaping a analog stick/dpad down to get player 2 to block setups. In the mid 2000s so many of us played on HDTVs with 20-100ms of lag and WE DIDNT EVEN KNOW ANY BETTER! Tech was less readily available


Its harder to be the best now.
The sheer volume of knowledge out there has brought the level of the average player UP SIGNIFICANTLY. Sure there are scrubs, but trust me, not even mid level players would be worried about getting cooked online in SFIV/MK9/FightCade Classics but now Kombat league is a landmind field. Plus the fact that on average the games are a lot easier.

So if you bring the floor up and the ceiling down... everyone is closer than ever before. But the GOATS, the greats, and even just the every day solid player will rise to where they need to be.

 

[AREZ God of War]

The competition has improved dramatically since Mortal Kombat 9, not to mention since the mid 90s. I encourage people to correct me if I am wrong, but a more accurate assessment of the early fighting game scene is that a small minority of players who spent lots of money and time in the arcades dominated while all other players were average at best. The internet did not exist so there was no access to information. You could not improve unless you wasted lots of coins.



I agree that back in the day certain fighting games required more execution (i.e., just frames, one frame links, no execution shortcuts for special moves, etc.), but the games lacked quality, particularly with respect to balance. You say you have to play "perfect" to win in Mortal Kombat 9, yet the best characters in the game ignore 85%+ of the roster. So the best players eventually master the most broken 4-5 characters regardless of execution barriers and the game becomes boring and monotonous. People, including me, quit playing Mortal Kombat 9 for this reason. Besides, fighting against 90%+ combos, infinite armor, variable frame data, several bugs and glitches, etc. is not what most people would consider "fun". Almost all of the old fighting games (i.e., 3s, MvC2, Tekken Tag 1, etc.) suffered from the same issues.

Look, for as long as I can remember, as soon as I started listening to what you are saying and ignoring the trolls that basically tried to slander you by claiming you were a "windbag" or whatever, i realized "this dude knows WTF he's talking about ", i value your opinion more than 99% of the shit that i read but I think abandoning MK9's engine for Injustice's was a huge mistake when they already had something good that just needed to be worked on more thoroughly.

A perfected MK9 with rebalancing and obvious improvements made where needed would have kept the high-level kommunity happy all the while enforcing why training and labbing is so important. Instead we got shit ol' skool dudes can't stand because it's just plain boring and caters to more than half the world that has no desire to leave the short-bus.

WHY IS REO NOT WORKING FOR NRS? WHY IS M2DAVE NOT WORKING FOR NRS? Why do these games continue to change engine after engine and meta after meta because people can't adapt and level the fuck up? No Ice Clone??? really? We all know historically Sub-Zero without ice clone is pure useless, but some unnamed individual has a grudge and was sooooo happy to announce that ice clone is gone because it was just one more thing they lost to.

It's just getting ridiculous and the people upstairs are abusing their privileges instead of setting examples. How can you take certain characters who were already established by their playstyle and change them completely??? Skarlet has become a disgrace, a shadow of her debut. The list of favoritism-based changes is endless and it's no surprise why so many people don't want to play MK11 before it's even been a year

 

[spidey300]

Well i mean by title alone he's not completely wrong. There was little presence of internet and social media. No Twitter, discords, forums, etc., to post and share tech. Today's fighting games, while having more mechanics also include more handholding and watered down successors of past games.

 

[spidey300]

This is so much bullshit.

Fighters were actually EASIER to play in the 90s at a competitive level as they were ALL, not just MK.. but all of them broken as fuck. MK2 has many infinites for example, and anyone that says MK9 wasn't completely broken is just kidding themselves.

The idea that fighting games are easier now is absolute rubbish.

Ok but a fighting game being broken doesn't exactly mean it's easy to play. Bring that type of attitude to real mvc2 and watch people get washed

 

[spidey300]

I’m sorry but this is dumb. Just by the sheer fact that more people enter tournaments and are active in the Fgc completely negates his point.

it’s the same reason players who were considered the best in the past can no longer hang. It’s not that they got worse; the competition just became better and more expansive

While the competition has gotten bigger and better; more numbers doesn't correlate to harder competition. You go to evo pools and gotta wash 10s of scrubs just to get to real competition

 

[Sazbak]

I’m sorry but this is dumb. Just by the sheer fact that more people enter tournaments and are active in the Fgc completely negates his point.

it’s the same reason players who were considered the best in the past can no longer hang. It’s not that they got worse; the competition just became better and more expansive

That can be explained easily by their age. Reaction times get worse as you age and also you have certain responsibilities as an adult like having a job and raising kids.

 

[THTB]

While the competition has gotten bigger and better; more numbers doesn't correlate to harder competition. You go to evo pools and gotta wash 10s of scrubs just to get to real competition

The numbers do matter.

Yes, at EVO, you will likely have a high chance of running through weaker players before meeting really hard competition. That's the nature of EVO, as the largest open tournament that people simply attend for the EVO experience.

You also have a high chance of getting paired up against strong players early as well. There are more of them out there, and you won't always be lucky that the seeding favors you.

 

[MsMiharo]

Maybe, just maybe, fighting games are just... Different now. It seems so hard to compare the two because of them being two entirely different beasts. Playing online vs playing at the arcade, being able to access frame data, discuss tactics and combos online, watching top players play, etc. It's just not comparable IMO.

 

[Juggs]

It’s like saying the World Series of Poker was harder to win back in the 80’s and 90’s when there were a fraction of the entrants and not nearly as good of players overall. It just isn’t true.

The more competitors a game has, the more competition it has. The more competition a game has, the harder it is to win.