Strategy They patching smoke?

[THTB]

Because you'd have to make 3d12 unsafe or make smoke bomb unsafe. Otherwise, he'd end up with a great option to make you guess to avoid 30% and the shit would be hard to fuzzy guard.

Basically, he'd be pretty dumb.

 

[cabibi]

Because you'd have to make 3d12 unsafe or make smoke bomb unsafe. Otherwise, he'd end up with a great option to make you guess to avoid 30% and the shit would be hard to fuzzy guard.

Basically, he'd be pretty dumb.

hell it doesn't even have to be the smoke bomb that hits low... I'd be fine with a low hitting mix up string like ermac has. just something to help smoke land a string in pressure.

right now smoke has 2 overhead strings in addition to the rest of them that all hit high or mid. maybe I'm missing something but it just seems redundant. Just exchange one of the overhead strings for a low hitting one.

 

[MKF30]

Smoke can zone...it's just very difficult, that's how I play him very zone like and defensive as oppose to a more aggressive smoke. And his jump in launch imo is one of the best jump ins in the game. Also, if you trade hits with certain characters with the smoke bomb you have time to dash in and do a combo off of that, so the trade off in a lot of cases favors Smoke imo.

If you jump against him you're talking free JK, teleport punches nearly every time. I personally like to turn invisibible or cloaked whenver I can because your foe having a hard time seeing you or not at all is always an advantage imo

 

[cabibi]

I retract my previous post. I guess this goes back to what THTB said about people not knowing their characters.

Smoke's D4 to B2, 3, smoke bomb is non-interuptable. I'm having really good sucess with it after a throw, teleport in and purposely wiff when they're on the ground, then you can either go straight into the b2, 3, or mix it up with a d4 into a b2, 3. Finally I have something quick to counter strings with lol.

 

[G4S KT]

Smoke's D3 to B2, 3, smoke bomb is non-interuptable.

Are you sure?? If this is true it's effing huge, though it seems too good to be.

 

[cabibi]

Are you sure?? If this is true it's effing huge, though it seems too good to be.

I made a type-0, it's d4 not d3. and keep in mind that non interruptable is different than a string. Non interruptable means just that, you can't interrupt it with a counter, however the opponent can still block it. it's still good to get pressure off though.. helps alot with those people who like to try and cross up after a low hit.. .the b2 catches them every time.

 

[G4S KT]

I made a type-0, it's d4 not d3.

Ah ok, that makes more sense.

Still, a very powerful thing to know. Even though they can block, If they have momentum going on you, chances are they will try to throw more moves after a tap kick and you can catch them. Even if they do block, they will probably block low to anticipate more low hits, in which case the b+2 will connect.

 

[ApocaLips]

A crappy projectile isn't gonna help if it's crappy...if it's crappy it's just another useless move there. It won't stop any characters in any way...it'll just be there.

Even the crappy projectiles are useful for putting pressure on rushdown characters. A little chip damage/meter while they blockdash in would be very helpful.

Also, why do you change your reasonings against using invisibility after I highlight different stuff like when it can be used? Before it was because he has more dependable options, but now it's because the situations are rare...wtf? Either way, it's a situation you can use it, and again, there's air throw, which you should be landing often enough.

I haven't changed my reasoning at all. I never said the opportunities for using invisibility are rare. Read again. I said that the times you need to use 2, 1, bomb to punish are fairly rare.

I feel like most of the time I'm redirecting you to my actual argument rather than actually arguing. Please read more carefully and attack fewer strawmen.

 

[fleshmasher]

helps alot with those people who like to try and cross up after a low hit.. .the b2 catches them every time.

When they try to cross up, i guess your b2 hits them in the air?
can you combo from that?
Because b2, 3, Bomb on aerial opponent will make maybe the 3 and definately the Bomb whiff.

 

[Zebster]

When they try to cross up, i guess your b2 hits them in the air?
can you combo from that?
Because b2, 3, Bomb on aerial opponent will make maybe the 3 and definately the Bomb whiff.

Don't have the time to test it, but you can probably link a Smoke bomb from just the b2. If you can't... just uppercut instead?

Yeah, I actually noticed that as well. Dunno how consistently it works, but it's there.

I've got it working pretty consistently, as long as they aren't trying to cross me up I get it most of the time. Deceptively good range on that 2, it'll basically hit what the uppercut would hit (again if they aren't crossing you up).

 

[cabibi]

When they try to cross up, i guess your b2 hits them in the air?
can you combo from that?
Because b2, 3, Bomb on aerial opponent will make maybe the 3 and definately the Bomb whiff.

Absolutely. I was playing against Konqrr's boy, Josh, @ casuals last night... at it was working.

2 things to keep in mind though are this:

1. If you see fit.. .you can push them back with a d3 first, before you throw out the d4. The spacing on the d4 will still hit because it has longer range than the d3.
2. Timing is pretty stiff going to the b2 from the d4 so you have to be careful.

The B2 is just a great combo starter in general. it has great range for an over head, and it's extremely quick.

 

[fleshmasher]

I made a type-0, it's d4 not d3. and keep in mind that non interruptable is different than a string. Non interruptable means just that, you can't interrupt it with a counter, however the opponent can still block it. it's still good to get pressure off though.. helps alot with those people who like to try and cross up after a low hit.. .the b2 catches them every time.

So i fooled around a bit with AA .
Especially with the timing that results from (opponent jumps) AA .
The only way i have found to combo from as hit on aerial opponent is:

AA , xx Bomb into whatever.

Timing is really tight, and hitting at wrong height (opponent too low?) can also make , and/or Bomb not work.
Using :en Bomb of course enhances chance of working.

With :en Bomb:
The opponent must not be too high:

AA xx :en Bomb works
AA, xx :en Bomb works when the hits.

AA xx :en Bomb also works on it's own.

AA and AA are good for combos after AA hit. Because you can combo on from the Bomb.
With , (Teleport Punch with Negative edge)
I hope after the patch too, because the Bombs are not OTG-ish.

Also: Is , interruptable? AAs for :en Bomb too.

 

[cgerrr]

A combo from 21 xx smoke bomb is a full combo from a jab, regardless of the damage. With 1.02 Smoke, it is a 31% punish, which is about 6% less than the most damaging combo you can currently get with this version of Smoke.

Talking about not knowing the character:

Smoke’s meter-less optimal BnB does 39%.
Smoke’s reliable meter-less ‘21 xx smoke bomb’ does 32-33% (depending on combo).
Smoke’s max dmg meter-less ‘21 xx smoke bomb’ does 36% (without jump in).

If you consider Smoke’s inability to do chip damage each % of damage is really matters for him. So if you can’t punish something with full damage combo it means severe disadvantage for Smoke, thus Smoke’s tier drop after Smoke cloud OTG removal.

The idea of OTGing with :en Smoke Cloud is interesting, but heavily impractical for obvious reason: meter. Smoke is free on wake-up, thus needs to use meter to weak-up safely. Additionally he needs to use meter to escape pressure. With the inability to generate meter quickly, like most high tiers, meter usage is pretty crucial for Smoke, thus you can’t use it in combos for meager 10% when you can save 15-25% (pre meter) with breaker or escape mixup with :en tele.

Compare Smoke’s GTFO option en tele) with Reptile GTFO option en elbow dash): 1 meter for 6 or even 5 startup frame 19-22% safe damage or ~10% chip damage + free mixup which additionally can be used to interrupt strings (i.e. reversal) for Reptile against Smoke’s 1 meter of nothing.

I would be content if you could OTG for additional 6% with regular Smoke cloud. It would upped his BnB damage and actually made jump kicks viable tool for him again, which would compensate Smoke’s inability to do chip damage and helped him against rush down characters (admit it – Smoke is free against rushdown without meter). However to compensate I’m all for changing his non :en Shake in a way, that it’s not 100% guaranty damage against projectiles – it’s pretty ridiculous and gimmicky.


_

 

[EGP_Shoryuken]

Talking about not knowing the character:

Smoke’s meter-less optimal BnB does 39%.
Smoke’s reliable meter-less ‘21 xx smoke bomb’ does 32-33% (depending on combo).
Smoke’s max dmg meter-less ‘21 xx smoke bomb’ does 36% (without jump in).

If you consider Smoke’s inability to do chip damage each % of damage is really matters for him. So if you can’t punish something with full damage combo it means severe disadvantage for Smoke, thus Smoke’s tier drop after Smoke cloud OTG removal.

The idea of OTGing with :en Smoke Cloud is interesting, but heavily impractical for obvious reason: meter. Smoke is free on wake-up, thus needs to use meter to weak-up safely. Additionally he needs to use meter to escape pressure. With the inability to generate meter quickly, like most high tiers, meter usage is pretty crucial for Smoke, thus you can’t use it in combos for meager 10% when you can save 15-25% (pre meter) with breaker or escape mixup with :en tele.

Compare Smoke’s GTFO option en tele) with Reptile GTFO option en elbow dash): 1 meter for 6 or even 5 startup frame 19-22% safe damage or ~10% chip damage + free mixup which additionally can be used to interrupt strings (i.e. reversal) for Reptile against Smoke’s 1 meter of nothing.

I would be content if you could OTG for additional 6% with regular Smoke cloud. It would upped his BnB damage and actually made jump kicks viable tool for him again, which would compensate Smoke’s inability to do chip damage and helped him against rush down characters (admit it – Smoke is free against rushdown without meter). However to compensate I’m all for changing his non :en Shake in a way, that it’s not 100% guaranty damage against projectiles – it’s pretty ridiculous and gimmicky.


_

Since you don't like to use meter for en extra %10, I might as well let you know theres a %41 bnb w/o jp smoke can do %44 with jp.

3, D1,2 njp dash forward 3,2 then as they are falling 4 into SB dash forward 3,d1,2 then uppercut. Combo is not very hard to do, and if you don't like to ex sb at the end, then thats the combo for you.

 

[cgerrr]

Thanks for the input.

However, there is a reason why I said that his 39% combo is optimal: you can wiff telepunch after it for good oki, while after an uppercut ender you revert to a neutral game, which is beneficial mostly to an opponent.

As of more damaging combo with an oki possibilities – MagiCurtains posted interesting 40% meter-less mid-screen: +, j., dash, , dash, xx smoke cloud, + xx telepunch (though I didn’t test an ability to safely wiff telepunch after it yet, so don’t hold me to this).

_

 

[ApocaLips]

Those combos that use njp after 3, D+1, 2 are definitely not that easy to do.

The bnb I listed in the guide now does 38%, and personally I find that it's a lot easier to do than similarly damaging alternatives. I'll take the 1% damage drop in return for dropping it much less frequently (and thereby preserving my oki opportunities).


Here are the changes that I can personally confirm that afaik haven't been addressed yet.

- Doing a smoke bomb that fails to juggle now causes untechable knockdown (meaning that using enhanced smoke bomb after air throw can now let you keep your whiffed TP oki)

- Combos involving smoke bomb do 1% more damage

- Whiffed TP in the air has no noticeable decrease in falling time. Maybe that's a change that the hotfix will take care of, but right now it doesn't look faster at all, and it definitely doesn't limit enemy responses if it is faster (they can still uppercut if they expect it, punish with an anti air combo, or mash crouching 3 to stop any mixup you'd try to do)

 

[PeeJaeys]

@cabibi Imma send you a PM, And that Down4 into a smoke is pretty beast.

 

[cabibi]

@cabibi Imma send you a PM, And that Down4 into a smoke is pretty beast.

LOL, thanks man, do that. Tom Brady is the one that should be credited with the d4 into b2.

 

[PeeJaeys]

I read some where here something about canceling with smoke, cancel what exactly and how so?

 

[EGP_Shoryuken]

Those combos that use njp after 3, D+1, 2 are definitely not that easy to do.

Try plinking the njp. I find it alot easier to land it when i plink 1 and 2.

 

[G4S KT]

Try plinking the njp. I find it alot easier to land it when i plink 1 and 2.

Yea, plinking makes a huge difference. Before I started plinking it I could barely connect, but after I did it came out very consistently. That's my plinking testimonial.