The "zoning" myth vs. the reality of pro-level skill

[Jhonnykiller45]

when's 11?

Injustice 11 won't be for a while, I think.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

Just wait til MK11 comes out, people will be like "Omg f*** this game so unbalanced, all rushdown, all footsie, where's my 50/50s, I miss MK9 dash block, DLC character choice is shit, what the hell is Deadpool doing here...."

 

[Mandolore1123]

Thanks all for the really thoughtful comments. It's all great food for thought.

To be fair, I didn't say that zoning itself is a myth (that would be a silly claim to make); the myth is the belief that the whole game is nothing but zoning and no other strategy is viable--which seems very widespread and persistent despite the counter-evidence. But yeah, I'm basing this mostly off 2018 tourneys, so point taken that it used to be a lot worse.

All points taken, really. I don't have much experience yet to confirm this myself, but it all makes sense. Sounds like there is a big skill learning gap: learning to spam a projectile is easy and usually rewarding, while learning to get in on an opponent spamming projectiles is difficult and usually punishing. So I guess it's no surprise most casual players stick with the simpler, mostly successful tactic? And they don't see enough zoning get punished (or get punished themselves) for it to really take hold that there's another way? Or maybe the other way just has too much learning curve, I don't know.

I mostly ask because I'm a new player and I'm going to make valiant attempt not to fall into this same pattern. I have no delusion that I'll ever be a competitive player, but if I'm going to learn the game, I'd rather take the time to learn competitive skills than learn bad habits or be a one-trick pony. Maybe I'm fooling myself. I'm very interested in any advice or insight folks have into this particular learning task.

I'm also concerned about the game and NRS's future though. Seems like they're not going to survive if they make games where only one playstyle is accessible to casual players and everything else takes pro-level skill. Just a thought exercise, but what would make I2 a better game? Big nerf on projectiles (damage, range, speed)? Easier inputs for rushdowns and combo strings? More RNG to level out the skill gap? I'd hate to see the game become something fundamentally different, but there has to be a good middle ground somewhere.

If you’re really looking to learn how to get around zoning or just being good at the game. I’d say hitting the lab for more than a few hours is paramount. Watching tournament footage with good commentary helps, as does understanding terminology. Finding friends online willing to play with you for long sets are good too no matter if they beat you or not. If you have a lot of time on your hands then I think it’s possible to record the AI to do stuff for you, so if there’s stuff you can’t get around, then it’s worth a shot to record yourself spamming/zoning and then work on ways to get around it. Most importantly I think is to get used to losing. Yes it’s frustrating and you get salty, but in the end it’s a game. We lose more often because of ourselves than our opponents. Sometimes we just get outplayed, or they put more time into the game, or we just don’t know the match-up well enough. Don’t be hesitant to send a GGs to people you feel are good and have had a fun match with. This could lead to more opportunities for games or even a new friend Good luck mate!


Sent from my iPhone using Test Your Might

 

[Marlow]

I think Injustice 2 is great, and has a bright future. The game sold well, was well received by critics, and has had a solid couple of competative seasons so far. It's made great improvements since the first Injustice, and I really hope they keep going with an eventual Injustice 3.

@Obly I'm a fairly low level player myself, feel free to add me on either PSN or Xbox, I play injustice on both. I don't always have a ton of time to play, so when I do get a chance to play I don't really care if I win or lose, I'm just happy to get some games in.

 

[Marlow]

Also, the best thing you can do to improve, especially at the start, is to simply play matches against other people, either online or in person. I didn't get into fighting games until about 4 years ago. Since then I've read a ton of guides, watched a ton of Youtube videos, watched a ton of tournaments, and spent a good amount of time in practice mode, but I've never really gotten that much better because I just don't spend enough time trying to play actual matches. It's something I'm trying to work on.

I'm a big fan of the Think, Don't Mash series from Press Button Win. Basically, make a gameplan for yourself focusing on just 4-6 things, and then play a lot of matches just using those 4-6 moves. After you start to get comfortable with those moves, you can start evaluating your losses and seeing where you can start to add moves, just 1-2 at a time, to start reaching the next level. It's from a SF point of view, but the principals can apply to any fighting game. https://pressbuttonwin.com/

 

[Marinjuana]

I don't think anybody is saying that Injustice 2 does not have strong zoning, but the perception that the game is dominated by zoners is simply whack.

People can talk about the skill gap between some zoners and other character archetypes, which is clearly a thing, but it's not exclusive to zoners vs non zoners. Grodd is harder to use then Flash, Captain Cold is harder to use then Starfire, and so on. Same could be said about MKX. Some characters do pretty much the same shit in every matchup and are able to be good, others have to adjust and tweak just to be able to hang. It seems it's just an issue of NRS games in general(and some other fighters too) where some characters take way less effort for just as much reward as other characters.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I've just never understood why NRS doesn't normalize meter building. There's no reason a character built to constantly throw projectiles should build as much meter for doing specials as characters that are designed to get in and use specials sparingly, during combos and such. They get 2 to 3 times more meter throughout the match just because they zone? Bleh.

 

[Marlow]

I've just never understood why NRS doesn't normalize meter building. There's no reason a character built to constantly throw projectiles should build as much meter for doing specials as characters that are designed to get in and use specials sparingly, during combos and such. They get 2 to 3 times more meter throughout the match just because they zone? Bleh.

I think it depends on the rest of the character's toolkit. A zoner might build more meter, but they might also be more reliant on meter to fuel their offense, or to keep their zoning going, or to make up for otherwise poor defensive options.

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

I've just never understood why NRS doesn't normalize meter building. There's no reason a character built to constantly throw projectiles should build as much meter for doing specials as characters that are designed to get in and use specials sparingly, during combos and such. They get 2 to 3 times more meter throughout the match just because they zone? Bleh.

I think that's basically the rub there. Zoners in NRS games tend to get 2-3 REALLY strong moves that allow them to get resources the other player can't while also giving them other great moves to deal with somebody once they get in.

 

[Invincible Salads]

I think that's basically the rub there. Zoners in NRS games tend to get 2-3 REALLY strong moves that allow them to get resources the other player can't while also giving them other great moves to deal with somebody once they get in.

i think it makes sense that they have a move or two to deal with someone once they get in

 

[HellblazerHawkman]

i think it makes sense that they have a move or two to deal with someone once they get in

Sure, that's totally fair. But I'm thinking of Deadshot, who also had a safe special that led into a 50/50 for 400 damage and put you back out of range. His upclose game was better than a good chunk of other characters who didn't get the same zoning tools he did

 

[M2Dave]

The main points have already been raised, but the community's immature and primitive attitude toward zoning ought to be mentioned too. Tweedy wins with Dr. Fate and Starfire and many people in the community question his skill. In other fighting game communities, this behavior is far less prevalent. The majority of people, even the stream monsters, understand that Sako, for example, wins because he is an exceptional player, not because Menat's zoning is broken. The same is true for the Guile players and the turtle Jack players in Tekken. This community also boos its players in tournaments for zoning which the other communities almost never do.

 

[Wigy]

The main points have already been raised, but the community's immature and primitive attitude toward zoning ought to be mentioned too. Tweedy wins with Dr. Fate and Starfire and many people in the community question his skill. In other fighting game communities, this behavior is far less prevalent. The majority of people, even the stream monsters, understand that Sako, for example, wins because he is an exceptional player, not because Menat's zoning is broken. The same is true for the Guile players and the turtle Jack players in Tekken. This community also boos its players in tournaments for zoning which the other communities almost never do.

Do you honestly think the injustice zoners are as hard as other characters? Don't think anyone was ever saying tweedy was bad but I don't think he's ever played a high skill character which is probably why people point it out.

He kind of got checked on his props fishing for his character choice throughout his successful career continually and most of them weren't ever proper zoners

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The main points have already been raised, but the community's immature and primitive attitude toward zoning ought to be mentioned too. Tweedy wins with Dr. Fate and Starfire and many people in the community question his skill. In other fighting game communities, this behavior is far less prevalent. The majority of people, even the stream monsters, understand that Sako, for example, wins because he is an exceptional player, not because Menat's zoning is broken. The same is true for the Guile players and the turtle Jack players in Tekken. This community also boos its players in tournaments for zoning which the other communities almost never do.

Whenever somebody says this, I inevitably have to bring up the following: other fighting games don't usually feature a combination of projectiles that hit low or overhead on meterburn, are often hitscan (a lot of SF's projectiles are relatively slow), do not trade, can have near-fullscreen knockback on MB, and also have time-based or multi-projectile mixups depending on how long you hold them or whether you MB them, combined with a lack of air blocking, air mobility, or built-in projectile-invulnerable moves

This doesn't mean that it doesn't take still to win with zoning. It does. But the barrier to being effective with zoning in MK/Injustice is much lower. And that's combined with the fact that zoners in these games also tend to have very stong options up-close and in footsie range (the reason vanilla Deadshot was oppressive wasn't just the guns -- it was because he also mixed you up once you got close)

So while it will always take a high level of skill to win with zoning at the highest level in our games, the perception is that the game mechanics favor the zoner in risk/reward. If you want to compare Injustice 2 to other games, you need to compare the *specific mechanics* and not just 'zoning' to be accurate.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@General M2Dave the second thing no one ever mentions is the size of the stages and characters and how this affects zoning in Injustice games specifically. Since you mentioned Sako, let's take a look at the distances:

Notice how because the screen distance between characters is fairly small and the characters are large, there's only a small percentage of the match where the players are significanly far away from each other. This means that zoning is all about picking your times and places, because you are constantly a jump or footsie normal away from being punished for throwing something out.

Comparing this to being fullscreen against Starfire or whatever is highly disingenuous. Again, this doesn't mean that it doesn't take skill to play Starfire at a high level, but the mechanics in our games are completely different due to the way the games are designed, and it creates a different perception of zoning.

 

[M2Dave]

This doesn't mean that it doesn't take still to win with zoning. It does. But the barrier to being effective with zoning in MK/Injustice is much lower. And that's combined with the fact that zoners in these games also tend to have very stong options up-close and in footsie range (the reason vanilla Deadshot was oppressive wasn't just the guns -- it was because he also mixed you up once you got close).

I am respectfully and genuinely not certain whether you know anything at all about Street Fighter IV and Menat. Options up close? She arguably has the best offensive V-Trigger in the game aside from Ibuki. Footsies range? She has long range attacks that have no hurt boxes. In fact, most people consider her to be a "superior Dhalsim" for this reason. Two characters from two different fighting games are difficult to compare, but I would argue that Menat is better than Starfire any day day, irrespective of each game's mechanics. Even in such case, Menat manages to be a top tier character in a fighting game that is much friendlier to offense than zoning.

However, your argument about ease of use is valid. Menat and Guile are more difficult to use than Starfire and Dr. Fate. Tweedy does not design the characters, though. NRS does. So kindly direct your criticism to them, not the players.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I am respectfully and genuinely not certain whether you know anything at all about Street Fighter IV and Menat. Options up close? She arguably has the best offensive V-Trigger in the game aside from Ibuki. Footsies range? She has long range attacks that have no hurt boxes. In fact, most people consider her to be a "superior Dhalsim" for this reason. Two characters from two different fighting games are difficult to compare, but I would argue that Menat is better than Starfire any day day, irrespective of each game's mechanics. Even in such case, Menat manages to be a top tier character in a fighting game that is much friendlier to offense than zoning.

However, your argument about ease of use is valid. Menat and Guile are more difficult to use than Starfire and Dr. Fate. Tweedy does not design the characters, though. NRS does. So kindly direct your criticism to them, not the players.

Menat is playing in footsie range 80% of the time in her matches, that's the point. She's not standing 3 full screens away shooting a barage of projectiles that might be randomly meterburned for 3 of them to come out, and will knock you back to the full 3 screens away if you get hit.

She does not have Starfire's array of fullscreen, fast zoning tools. Her zoning is "good for SF" but wouldn't be anything to speak of in Injustice's meta. That's the point.

Sako spends much of the time in his matches in jump/footsie distance. The orb is a strategic element, not something he just spams continuously. Comparing this to Injustice zoners just simply doesn't hold up; it's apples to oranges imo.

 

[Invincible Salads]

injustice zoning is fine :T

 

[Espio]

I think my problem with the narrative some people are trying to create is that rushdown characters can barely ever build meter which is something that is a highly dishonest assertion. Whether it's Grodd, Cheetah, Flash, Catwoman, or Canary many have full screen specials that build them meter allow them to counter zone and allow them to potentially get in off of a correct read into high damaging combos, oki, restands and so on. The only people that believe rushdown characters can't really build meter at a distance are people who either: don't understand the meter system, don't understand the characters or are being WILLFULLY ignorant.


There's another reality: Someone zoned me for a while with Cheetah, but then I baited their anti-air, leaped in and did 500 damage and got a life lead and put them in the corner even though they had thrown a ton of projectiles and spaced me out for a while. People don't understand the roles of characters and they don't care because it doesn't suit the narrative. I only needed to be right once to undo the entire zoning damage/pressure on me.

People keep mentioning Deadshot from ages ago who has been a non-factor for a long time. Game should be discussed in its current, actual version not in a version that doesn't exist and one that is used to justify current feelings.

If you watch the pattern of majors over time, we see rushdown and zoning characters both thriving and doing well. The game is not even remotely polarized where one style dominates as we see Robin, Canary, Flash, Catwoman, Cheetah and other rushdown characters played by top level comp putting Starfire, Blue Beetle, Cyborg etc on their asses who are also being played by top level comp. The same is happening with dedicated, competent mid level players.

 

[Braindead]

Make zoners as great in zoning as you want. I welcome the challenge to navigate through that.

But when you also give them the best normals in the game then P A U L O P L S

 

[Darth-Nero]

Balance at the pro level, is not even remotely the same thing as balance at the level most humans are playing at. At the intro level, it's something else entirely. Someone that knows nothing beyond how to df-whatever with a zoner, creates a situation where another player has to lab, get his spacing and timing down, understand the nature of how a particular projectile leaves the zoner vulnerable, know what other projectiles option they have, know about MB-roll, and be able to put it all into practice. That's two wildly different levels of education needed to get on even footing.

^this.

Basically what pro-NRSzoning players are saying is that you need to break into that top 1% of the player base in order to enjoy a balanced experience of the game because up there, zoning is not really optimal. The rest of the 99% of the player base just need to git gud.

Ranting aside, this argument is a no brainer. It's not balanced for someone to have to spend hundreds of hours in the lab learning spacing, timing, nature of every zoner's projectiles and when and how to maneuver them and put all of that into practice VS someone who only have to learn when to use 3 different types of projectiles while staying full screen.

The skill : reward ratio is absurdly off balance. Read Crimson's posts above to understand why zoning in NRS games is the most frustrating experience of all compared to other fighting games.

 

[Darth-Nero]

Make zoners as great in zoning as you want. I welcome the challenge to navigate through that.

But when you also give them the best normals in the game then P A U L O P L S

Exactly. If zoner's main strength is their keep away game and their ability to fight from safe distance, Then once you manage to close the distance on them they should be the ones struggling. But that's not the case in NRS games, Zoners are just as good up close as they are fullscreen. what the actual fuck?

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Exactly. If zoner's main strength is their keep away game and their ability to fight from safe distance, Then once you manage to close the distance on them they should be the ones struggling. But that's not the case in NRS games, Zoners are just as good up close as they are fullscreen. what the actual fuck?

Not to mention they'll already have the meter for breaker/clash the second you get in and they make a mistake.

 

[Wigy]

Not to mention they'll already have the meter for breaker/clash the second you get in and they make a mistake.

Also the fact you'll have taken chip you can't do much of anything about on the way in.

Think the thing everyone hates about it is that until you close the gap -which is harder than maintaining it, most of what happens is somewhat out of your hands. You will have to at least take some chip and they will build meter. One mistake it all starts again. Very low risk/read for them outside jump in range (even then fate has b2 and Starfire has that up blast thing to catch you jumping fairly reliably).

Some characters like catwoman can get around it with jump ins etc but on the whole most characters just gotta hold it. Zoners should have to hold more shit up close, not have great footsies, buttons and wakeups.

 

[Marlow]

One thing that I would find helpful to clear up: What characters are we considering "zoners"? Is it any character that has a projectile or full screen tracking move? I tend to think of zoners as more of characters that want to maintain space and distance and try to win with a full screen game, like Cyborg, Fate, Starfire, and Deadshot. I notice there are a lot of comments talking about how zoners also have the best normals/footsies/up close game, and I'm wondering if we could be more specific about what characters we're talking about, in the current version of the game.