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Strategy - Ferra/Torr The "Which Variation Should I Pick For Which Match-up?" Thread

MadeFromMetal

Heart From Iron, Mind From Steel.
I think it's deep enough into the game's life to have this conversation. The OP will just be a framework for now, and I only know a few match-ups so I'll be heavily relying on F/T community input to help flesh this guide out. I'll make sure to keep it updated with the latest strategy for each match-up. For now, This will only cover the most used variations, but as the game progresses, hopefully we can get a paragraph or so for each one. If you disagree with anything or want to expand on something in this first edition, just explain why. This is also here to spark strategy discussion, and I want this guide to be as correct as possible.

Jason - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Kung Lao - Lackey
Key Moves
EX DB2 - Punish gaps in his strings or certain strings into Orbiting Hat for full combo.
D1 - Knocks Lao out of a teleport, a good long range check, but don't get too poke happy because of EX Spin.
BF3 - Good for eating the hit after a teleport, or punishing a string into Orbiting Hat for no meter.

General Strategy
Play aggressive, but smart. Stay close. Lao knows you have to come in so he'll be looking to EX Spin often. If you bait him a few times, he might slow down with the spinning, then you can get going with tick throws and raw command grabs.

Jax - Lackey
Key Moves
D1 - Max range D1 is your best friend. None of Jax's down pokes can reach from this distance, and it's a very useful move for interrupting his staggers/cancels.
EX DB2 - On Block, anything Jax does after F3 can be interrupted. Use EX DB2 to full combo punish. Also useful for punishing him for staggering. Jax loves to 11, and then keep pressing buttons.
EX BF2 - Useful for escaping the corner on a read. Jax can break armor with 123, and this is fast enough to beat that.
EX BF3 - Also useful for escaping the corner.
DBF1 - Because Jax cannot counter poke at max D1 range, grab him as he whiffs.

General Strategy

Punish the damn gaps and the staggers. If playing Heavy Weapons, punish the cancels on block. He is only plus after 4~LRC. Every other cancel can at least be D1'd out of, if not outright full combo punished with 2/11/ B121~EX DB2. If they start cancelling immediately into block, punish with DBF1 or regular throw. Try to Stay about at max D1 range and be incredibly patient. Like Lao, this is not a matchup where you can just dash in go ham. However, you have to take advantage of every opportunity to get damage, because you might not get it again. Meter management is incredibly important in this match, maybe more so than others.

Sonya - Lackey
Key Moves
EX DB2 - Good for punishing jump-ins, dive kicks and blocked MS cancels for full combo.
D1 - Out-footsie her from max D1 range and she cannot counter down-poke back.
DBF1 - If you read a counterpoke off of a blocked D1, you can grab her as she whiffs.
BF3 - Good for eating a divekick.
General Strategy
Walk her down. Our arms just straight up out reach her. The only string she has that outreaches us is F2B1. Jump back divekick can be beat with Ex torryuken or normal charge if you have your four frame window timing down. The goal is to get her to the corner. Abuse D4 in the corner since it goes underneath her leg grab wake up and allows for a full punish afterwards. If she gets hit by the D4 its a free mix up, if she blocks it D1 is a frame trap afterwards with command grab ready to snatch her the second she hesitates. EX DB2 is great for getting out of military stance mix ups if you block everything before the cancel into the stance. Just watch out for Xray and bait it because she will use it to get you off her.

Kenshi - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Kitana - Vicious
Key Moves
BF4 - Ferra eats projectiles. Nuff Sed.
DB2 - Useful for punishing jumping and Air Fans.
NJP - Useful for punishing jumping on a read. Do NOT just NJP willy nilly because you WILL get caught with an instant air fan.

General Strategy

Try to distance yourself at about midscreen or almost max Boss Toss range. This should give you enough time to punish a fan on reaction with BF4 or a jump fan with DB2. BF3 is also pretty useful for swatting jump-ins from this distance.

Scorpion - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Sub-Zero - Vicious
Key Moves
BF4 - Blows up Clone and Ice Ball
DB2 - Blows up Clone and Ice Ball from longer distances.

General Strategy

Do not throw Ferra until there is either a Clone on the screen or an Ice Ball about to leave his hands. If you do and it's blocked, he can immediately clone and throw it, then run up and be at advantage before Ferra gets back. Walk Sub down, and make him react. If he reacts with Clone or Ice Ball, be ready to throw Ferra. In neutral, I pretty much leave BF2 alone in this matchup, because a trade with an Ice Ball is heavily in Sub's favor and EX Slide will give him a HKD and a pressure opportunity. When you get cornered with a Clone, do not NJP. A good Sub will simply Shatter the Clone at the height of your jump and convert for massive damage. You may just have to hold the 50/50 and punish on a correct guess.

Mileena - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Takeda - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Cassie - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Jacqui - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Kung Jin - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Tanya - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Predator - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Shinnok - Ruthless
Key Moves
DD1 - Timed correclty, it allows for a punish for almost all of Shinnok's offensive tools.
EX DBF1 - Use this to blow up Frame gaps.
General Strategy
Against Bone Shaper -
5-5 at worst

Bone shaper really only has the faster vortex, and can zone the neutral with bone scythe. The pushback on his beam now actually works against him because it leaves him at a range where Torr can throw moves that reach, whereas Shinnok is forced to commit to advancing normals or a backdash. Torr also heavily outdamages Shinnok and can get the damage buff off consistently. Shinnok does still have the option to build and burn some bar in order to force Torr to lose his buff, but its decently costly on time and meter for the Shinnok player. MB grab negates the option of shoulder on Wake-up due to its 2 hits of armor, and anything level 2 and above in PnG also stops most of his WU game from working.

Against Imposter -
5-5 at worst, possibly even slightly Torr's favor

Imposter lost basically all claim in this MU with the recent changes. For one, now we have an option to punish basically everything he does while getting big and beefy thanks to the PnG changes. Throwing max range mimicry on block? Pain and Gain, soak the hit and run cancel in, free 40% combo. Teleporting in? Pain and Gain, either soak the hit or force the bluff (same timing), punish for 40%. Hell Sparks in the neutral? PnG, soak one, run in for the punish, 40% combo. Any frame gap? MB command throw through it. It becomes a guessing game for the Shinnok player when SHINNOK is on offense. Mind you, he does still have dangerous tools when he does land his vortex, but we certainly aren't helpless towards it anymore. I might even give this slightly Torr's favor because of just the sheer amount of options PnG covers now.

Against Necromancer -
6-4 Shinnok's favor

PnG does a lot of things, but bypassing Necromancer's zoning is not one of them. Mind you, we can get in slightly easier and when we do its basically game over for the Shinnok player, however we still take a lot of bone fingers to the face on the way in. Makes our health loss when buffing a bit more relevant, and we are still a bit too slow to avoid the flick by running. We do have a benefit, however, that at 2 buffs or more we trade for a significant amount more damage withn counter-zoning, but only bowl girl will maintain its hitbox all the way through.

Kano - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Johnny Cage - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Erron Black - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Liu Kang - Variation Dependent
Key Moves
BF4 - Goes through both Liu's fireball options.
D3 - Interrupts FBRC

General Strategy
Key Moves
DD1 - Build chip gain and meter.
DBF1 - 2 hits of armor, LK can't break.
DB2 - Plus blockstring ender.

General Strategy

The main problem with Lackey in this match up is that Lackey doesn't build enough meter on block to keep up with Liu. Once we do get the meter for armor its not that hard for Liu to completely stuff EX DB2 on a semi read. Using the 2 hits of armor on command grab is your best friend in this MU. Use Ferra toss after B121 to be plus on block along with pain n gain cancels to build meter and decent chip. (increased chip the more pain n gains we do). This makes it so you will almost always have at least one bar to EX grab out of his multihitting strings and specials, plus that grab gets a damage boost from the pain n gain and by going for steady chip and unbreakable grab damage it doesn't give Liu the option to break as often with all the meter he will have.

Ermac - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Kotal Kahn - Variation Dependent
Key Moves
BF4 - Punish the Sword Throw on reaction in neutral. Also useful for punishing Kotal for whiffing forward advancing strings to get closer to you.
BF2 - a good distance check.
DB2 - a better distance check.
NJP - Useful against a whiff happy Kotal.

General Strategy

Make Kotal come to you. You can lame this match out, frustrate him and give him a Ferra obstacle course to get in. If they run in after a toss, check them with Lackey D1. Beware of War God armoring through your check, though. The key thing is, don't let him get away with whiffing. Some Kotals like to whiff B34/F12/B122 to get in. NJP and BF4 are great tools to counter that.

Key Moves
B12 - Neutral on block
BF3 - React to pizza with projectile immunity.
EX DB2 - Armored launcher
D1 - Poke back when Kotal uses his 6f pokes.

General Strategy

You can really abuse his lack of armour with b12, d1, EXdb2, etc. Utilizing the projectile immunity on charge very easily against both the normal and EX pizzas (meaning you don't have to risk jumping them or armour through them and take a ton of damage if he has a damage buff out). This also works duringhis b1 string into pizza block pressure. For b14 EX pizza, charge after b14 will get you out of the pressure for no meter and you will take no damage from the pizza as it hits during the invulnerability frames (you can do a lot of things after a blocked b14 but if you're looking to switch sides and/or not use meter, charge can come in handy) and if they're cancelling into EX pizza from b122 you can still soak it up with the invulnerability frames, if they know what you're going for they can block before the charge hits, but the most kotal can do at this point is d1, d4 or d2. And of course having EX db2 to armour through anything for a full combo punish is very good, as he can never challenge it with armour of his own. It also helps to always have access to Lackey's 6 frame d1 make kotals 6 frame pokes less of a pain.

Reptile - Vicious
Key Moves
BF4 - Reptile is all about controlling horizontal space and Boss Toss can help with negating that.
NJP - Good for catching an impatient Reptile trying to work his way in.
General Strategy
BF4 covers all grounds basically since Reptile is all about horizontal ground movement/control. Boss Toss will beat a forceball and spit at the same time, is faster on start up so can be used to control mad elbow dashing as well. Forces Reptile to get in on us rather than let him play hit and run style with his forceballs. After conditioning them to stop throwing slime, they will try to get in, and a well timed NJP can blow that up as well.

Ferra/Torr - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

D'Vorah - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Raiden - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Quan Chi - Lackey
Key Moves
D1 - Good for keeping range.
D4 - Great in the corner. It's +2 on block so you're guaranteed a follow-up D1
EX DB2 - Helps Escaping rune pressure.
BF3 - Punish Air Skulls
DBF1 - After getting Quan to respect the fact he can't wake up, grab as he's preparing for pressure.

General Strategy

Get Quan to the corner and abuse max range D4, D1, B121, and Command grab. (FT players NEED to start using D4 more, especially in the corner, its plus 2 on block and plus 20 on hit, slow start up but fast recovery so when done as a meaty on wake ups you can usually block in time before the move hits you). If Quan tries to yolo armor out of knockdown pressure with teleport while doing a D1 or D4 and immediate D1 again will catch him out of the sky on the way down. If you make the read on an IA-NJP, go for an EX DB2.

Goro - ???
Key Moves

General Strategy

Tremor - Lackey/Ruthless
Key Moves
EX DB2 (Lackey) - Interrupts the cancels in DB1 or stone fist
BF3 (Lackey) - Also can interrupt cancels for no meter/less damage. Useful for navigating through Overhead rocks.
EX BF3 (Lackey) - gets you out of his armor breaking corner set ups.
DD1 (Ruthless) - Armor through rocks.
EX DBF1 (Both) - Grab through gaps.

General Strategy
Another matchup where patience is key. Navigating through the Aftershock Obstacle Course can be a pain, but if you can get in and punish accordingly from the right range, this matchup isn't as bad as it seems.

@cR Biohazard, @Doombawkz, @Wetdoba, @Forr, @MK Led, @Alien Substance, @cR_whiteboi, @EGP Wonder_Chef, @Grr, @AceOfKnaves, @Parnak, @FOREVER KING JR, @RM Indecisive, @Johnny Based Cage, @Braindead, @Pterodactyl, @Kyu @Anyone else that wants to contribute. (Even if you have matchup knowledge from the other perspective.

If you want to weigh in on a character, please keep formatting the same so I can just copy/paste into the OP. Thanks, guys!
 
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Wetdoba

All too easy...
It's too bad most people don't play the game this way, these were the threads I've been waiting for. The more I think about this list the more I realize that Lackey is great for a bunch of match ups.

Anyway I'll add some for now. Sonya I think Lackey is definitely best for, maybe not the drone stance though. Lackey out footsies her with her short ass arms and EX DB2 is great against divekicks or her J1. So is meterless charge. For anyone like Sonya or Jax that whiff their counter pokes at max range too I would add the command grab as a key move as well because if I think they are going to whiff the counter poke I just grab them out of it as they whiff.

Quan I think might be good to go Lackey too, definitely for summoner, if hes vortexing us we dont have time to wait for Ferra to get back and throwing Ferra doesn't help against shit like runes or when he ust does ump back air skull from full screen. Lackey can deal with him much better as D1 is still amazing with command grab here. EX DB2 gets us out of EX rune pressure, and the meterless charge projectile immunity is great for dealing with air skulls. If we have meter we can punish trance for a solid 40% easily. Get Quan to the corner and abuse max range D4, D1, B121, and Command grab. (FT players NEED to start using D4 more, especially in the corner, its plus 2 on block and plus 20 on hit, slow start up but fast recovery so when done as a meaty on wake ups you can usually blocck in time before the move hits you). If Quan tries to yolo armor out of knockdown pressure with teleport while doing a D1 or D4 an immediate D1 again will catch him out of the sky on the way down.
 
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Wetdoba

All too easy...
Reptile I think should be Vicious, since we cant wake up with Ferra Tosses he gets a free meterless forceball set up on us on knockdowns, he outzones us like crazy in the other stances but once you get Boss Toss its a completely different story. Covers all grounds basically since Reptile is all about horizontal ground movement/control. Boss Toss will beat a forceball and spit at the same time, is faster on start up so can be used to control mad elbow dashing as well. Forces Reptile to get in on us rather than let him play hit and run style with his forceballs

Tremor is either Lackey or Ruthless, either works. In Lackey you can interupt the cancels in DB1 or stone fist with EX DB2 into full combo or meterless charge. Meterless charge can also be used to get out of overhead rocks from full screen, and the EX charge gets you out of his armor breaking corner set ups. If going Ruthless pain n gain through the rocks and EX command grab through his gaps. Honestly Vicious could work here too for Crystalline since Boss Toss will catch him out of his crystal armor for slighlty less than the full 16%. I actually dont find this match up bad at all, pretty even slighty in our favor since his armor is alow and can be stuffed by B121 pretty consistantly in the corner and he cant bait a reversal by cancelling DB1s because reversal EX grab will still get him.
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Yeah the thread has been due for sometime now. I don't have enough info to contribute but looking forward to reading all the info.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
How's that? One character/All variations?

Also, would you mind expanding on the Sonya strategy a little?
Yeah most people do not play one character all variations they counter pick a bad match up with another random top tier variation instead and its super lame, but thats why I love this character and the people that play them even more.

Anyway for Sonya our arms just straight up out reach her. The only string she has that outreaches us is that two hit advancing one which is whatever. Jump back divekick can be beat with Ex torryuken or normal charge if you have your four frame window timing down. If you get her in the corner too she is done-zo. D4 is so damn abuse-able against her in the corner since it goes underneath her leg grab wake up and allows for a full punish afterwards. IF she gets hit by the D4 its a free mix up, if she blocks it D1 is a frame trap afterwards with command grab ready at to snatch her the second she hesitates. EX Torryuken also great for getting out of military stance mix ups if you block everything before the cancel into the stance. Just watch out for Xray and bait that shit because she will use it to get you off her. Our armor options are great against her grenade shenanigans too. The drone stance I haven't play against as much but the homing shit is annoying as hell for lackey since she can stagger her projectile behind it preventing us from using meterless charge. I think Vicious might be best for this but I'm not sure, I haven't played it at a high level, not sure if her rushdown options in that variation could cause us problems or not
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Use Ruthless vs Shinnok...

Ruthless vs Shinnok :

What a doozy this has become. When I originally said Pain and Gain is a technical move that might make all of the difference, I certainly wasn't wrong. With the new update to the character's option, the MU has swayed very heavily into another ballpark entirely. To begin, Pain and Gain solves 2 problems that Ferra/Torr had no answer for before now: A means to deal with air attacks and a mean to deal with Hell Sparks in the neutral. With how Pain and Gain functions now, Ruthless can now PnG against a Shinnok teleport and punish him pretty much 100% of the time, since at a certain point Shinnok's air normal will whiff and Torr will scoop him for it. As for Hell Sparks, Torr can actually punish them (depending on his reactions, sometimes even the MB variation) by PnG on one of them and dashing, forcing the other 1/2 of them to whiff.

Against Bone Shaper -
5-5 at worst

Bone shaper really only has the faster vortex, and can zone the neutral with bone scythe. The pushback on his beam now actually works against him because it leaves him at a range where Torr can throw moves that reach, whereas Shinnok is forced to commit to advancing normals or a backdash. Torr also heavily outdamages Shinnok and can get the damage buff off consistently. Shinnok does still have the option to build and burn some bar in order to force Torr to lose his buff, but its decently costly on time and meter for the Shinnok player. MB grab negates the option of shoulder on Wake-up due to its 2 hits of armor, and anything level 2 and above in PnG also stops most of his WU game from working.

Against Imposter -
5-5 at worst, possibly even slightly Torr's favor

Imposter lost basically all claim in this MU with the recent changes. For one, now we have an option to punish basically everything he does while getting big and beefy thanks to the PnG changes. Throwing max range mimicry on block? Pain and Gain, soak the hit and run cancel in, free 40% combo. Teleporting in? Pain and Gain, either soak the hit or force the bluff (same timing), punish for 40%. Hell Sparks in the neutral? PnG, soak one, run in for the punish, 40% combo. Any frame gap? MB command throw through it. It becomes a guessing game for the Shinnok player when SHINNOK is on offense. Mind you, he does still have dangerous tools when he does land his vortex, but we certainly aren't helpless towards it anymore. I might even give this slightly Torr's favor because of just the sheer amount of options PnG covers now.

Against Necromancer -
6-4 Shinnok's favor

PnG does a lot of things, but bypassing Necromancer's zoning is not one of them. Mind you, we can get in slightly easier and when we do its basically game over for the Shinnok player, however we still take a lot of bone fingers to the face on the way in. Makes our health loss when buffing a bit more relevant, and we are still a bit too slow to avoid the flick by running. We do have a benefit, however, that at 2 buffs or more we trade for a significant amount more damage withn counter-zoning, but only bowl girl will maintain its hitbox all the way through.

Not a huge disadvantage though. Thats probably as bad as it gets now.



^^ This is what I grasp from it.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Great write up. You wouldn't happen to have any video of you playing a shinnok do you?
I very rarely record, and when I do its labbing, so no.
However there is a local Shinnok player that I can try to record matches with some other time. He is on vacation right now :(
 

MadeFromMetal

Heart From Iron, Mind From Steel.
I very rarely record, and when I do its labbing, so no.
However there is a local Shinnok player that I can try to record matches with some other time. He is on vacation right now :(
Cool. We definitely need more matches in the video thread. Possibly even separate it out by character. Or...OR...I can take some videos and post them in this thread in the explanations section...hmmm...
 

MadeFromMetal

Heart From Iron, Mind From Steel.
Yeah most people do not play one character all variations they counter pick a bad match up with another random top tier variation instead and its super lame, but thats why I love this character and the people that play them even more.
I was thinking about this, and part of it might be that we're fortunate enough to love and play a character that has three equally useful variations with different strengths and weaknesses that counteract each other. Some, if not most, characters can't say that.
 

cR Biohazard

Team Torr
If you could separate this by variation I think that'll be great as Ferra/Torr do better in certain MUs such as Vicious being better against the zoning Pyromancer Tanya while Lackey is more useful against Kobu Tanya. Also videos against each character would be great to use if we can find them.
 

cR Biohazard

Team Torr
What do you think is the best variation against Liu Kang Dragon Fire / Flame Fist?
Vicious/Ruthless do decently with his fireballs but once Liu Kang gets in, Ferra/Torr's options are low outside of MB grab and once the opponent becomes wise to that they can punish you hard for a whiffed command grab. A rule of thumb when using Ferra/Torr is that any character that has heavy pressure it is better to use Lackey against them, since having Ferra helps F/T excel at counter zoning but her uses diminish under heavy pressure. Also Lackey's D1 helps to create space and separation when you find the gap.
 

Asodimazze

A-Lister
Vicious/Ruthless do decently with his fireballs but once Liu Kang gets in, Ferra/Torr's options are low outside of MB grab and once the opponent becomes wise to that they can punish you hard for a whiffed command grab. A rule of thumb when using Ferra/Torr is that any character that has heavy pressure it is better to use Lackey against them, since having Ferra helps F/T excel at counter zoning but her uses diminish under heavy pressure. Also Lackey's D1 helps to create space and separation when you find the gap.
Thanks for the input,

I thought the biggest problem was his zoning, it's hard to trade with Liu fireballs because low Ferra Toss doesn't work against his low fireball (it goes over Ferra lol) and the overhead ferra toss gets beat very often, since his fireballs are so fast in general...I got zoned in most games.

If you have any videos against Liu, I would like to watch them.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Vicious/Ruthless do decently with his fireballs but once Liu Kang gets in, Ferra/Torr's options are low outside of MB grab and once the opponent becomes wise to that they can punish you hard for a whiffed command grab. A rule of thumb when using Ferra/Torr is that any character that has heavy pressure it is better to use Lackey against them, since having Ferra helps F/T excel at counter zoning but her uses diminish under heavy pressure. Also Lackey's D1 helps to create space and separation when you find the gap.
Personally I've found the most success against Liu with Vicious for Dragon's Fire and Ruthless against Flame Fists. The fireball game in dragon's fire I don't even want to worry about and the low fireballs dont get hit by bowl girl so boss toss helps alot. I've found D3 to be fine for interrupting the fireball cancel gaps too. Even then we will still have D1 available if Ferra isn't on our back.

For Flame fists I've been going Ruthless over Lackey too. The main problem with Lackey in this match up IMO is that Lackey doesn't build enough meter on block to keep up with Liu. Once we do get the meter for armor its not that hard for Liu to completely stuff EX DB2 on a semi read. I've resorted to actually using the 2 hits of armor on command grab is my best friend in this MU. for that reason I've gone Ruthless mostly because the overhead Ferra toss after B121 being plus on block along with pain n gain cancels builds great meter and decent chip (increased chip the more pain n gains we do) but makes it so we will almost always have at least one bar to EX grab out of his multihitting strings and specials, plus that grab gets a damage boost from the pain n gain and by going for steady chip and unbreakable grab damage it doesn't give Liu the option to break as often with all the meter he will have.

Those are my thoughts on Liu from my experience
 

KuralKing

Never forget The Great Ferra/Torr Scare!
I had more success fighting johnny with Lackey, try to stay close to him and use the My Love is like a Moving Truck (BF3) whenever he tries to runaway and do the green balls or when you feel a shadow kick is coming.

Kenshi i would say lackey too, kenshi player like to stay long range and "zone you out (fancy way to say that you run away like a "lil bitch")" and since ferra won't touch him if he touches you first, i find the fight without having to worry about ferra jumping on your back and just putting the pressure on them and loving them like a truck to be the least frustrating option.
 

cR Biohazard

Team Torr
Personally I've found the most success against Liu with Vicious for Dragon's Fire and Ruthless against Flame Fists. The fireball game in dragon's fire I don't even want to worry about and the low fireballs dont get hit by bowl girl so boss toss helps alot. I've found D3 to be fine for interrupting the fireball cancel gaps too. Even then we will still have D1 available if Ferra isn't on our back.

For Flame fists I've been going Ruthless over Lackey too. The main problem with Lackey in this match up IMO is that Lackey doesn't build enough meter on block to keep up with Liu. Once we do get the meter for armor its not that hard for Liu to completely stuff EX DB2 on a semi read. I've resorted to actually using the 2 hits of armor on command grab is my best friend in this MU. for that reason I've gone Ruthless mostly because the overhead Ferra toss after B121 being plus on block along with pain n gain cancels builds great meter and decent chip (increased chip the more pain n gains we do) but makes it so we will almost always have at least one bar to EX grab out of his multihitting strings and specials, plus that grab gets a damage boost from the pain n gain and by going for steady chip and unbreakable grab damage it doesn't give Liu the option to break as often with all the meter he will have.

Those are my thoughts on Liu from my experience
I agree with you here, haven't played the MU a lot but I do remember having success with Vicious against Flame Fist and your points on Ruthless against Dragon's Fire are good too, always enjoy having the two hitting armored command grab on wake up against character that easily break armor.
 

Enexemander

A Hitbox Pirate - YARRR -
I've found D3 to be fine for interrupting the fireball cancel gaps too. Even then we will still have D1 available if Ferra isn't on our back.
This shouldn't be possible, given that the DF Liu player has decent cancels (not even frame perfect). F213xxFBRC-F213 is a true blockstring, F213xxFBRC-F12 is a true blockstring with easier execution. If they screw up the frame links, it's still a massive frame trap that will eat anything without armor.

Check out the first post here- http://testyourmight.com/threads/post-patch-fbrc-data.55815/

f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0
B34 = +10
44 = +10
I'm not saying this to start an argument. Just that if you end up in tournament against a high execution DF Player (motherfucking Unicorn), you should know what your options are. And frankly, a normal after almost any fireball cancel is not one of them.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
This shouldn't be possible, given that the DF Liu player has decent cancels (not even frame perfect). F213xxFBRC-F213 is a true blockstring, F213xxFBRC-F12 is a true blockstring with easier execution. If they screw up the frame links, it's still a massive frame trap that will eat anything without armor.

Check out the first post here- http://testyourmight.com/threads/post-patch-fbrc-data.55815/



I'm not saying this to start an argument. Just that if you end up in tournament against a high execution DF Player (motherfucking Unicorn), you should know what your options are. And frankly, a normal after almost any fireball cancel is not one of them.
I didnt say to do it after every cancel I said to do it in the gaps, he cant block string us forever. D3 is 7 frames so Im saying when its our turn to poke D3 works just as well as Lackey D1 in those situations. I know there are lots of cancels we have to block after, but eventually we can poke for the frame advantage and then start our pressure.
 

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I had success fighting kotal khan (war god) with gunslinger.

once you throw caltrops and get a good distance away there is nothing war god can really do. Zone him out with coin toss and sand gernade. You can shutdown his big ass jump in punch with SOS2 as well.

Gunslinger is also pretty effective against ice clones (gm sub)