The Slips and Hippo Show E4: The One About CEO and Twitter Toxicity

[Roy Arkon]

Geez Roy, we really need to get that sand out of your vagina, it's making you cranky. Does it itch?


Yes, your numerous ad hominems are a wonderful example for how to intellectually debate a subject.


You need to stop using that word, you keep using it wrong.


Much more than that lol. If you really think everything Juggs or Matix said is based on "one or two very small points", then you don't know what you're arguing against.


I'm still waiting on Jax's punch to be fixed.


I don't have any emotional investment here lol. You keep acting like I have some sort of agenda, but I'm not even sure what agenda I'm supposed to have. You really need to learn the difference between complaints and observations, there's a rather fine line.


Oh?

FTR stands for "for the record", does it not? Again, what I mention has to do with what can be seen from a consumer's perspective. I'm not acting like I know the interrelationship between WB and NRS lol.


You don't seem to understand its relevance to the discussion at hand.


Another example of you not understanding that word.


Another undeserved holier-than-thou implication of stupidity. You wound me, sir. However shall I go on?


Point out the hyperbole, cause I'm not sure that you know what that word means either lmao.

Whatever dude, keep your toxicity to yourself, it seems you really wanna keep that venom in your vagina (you mentioned that term first, not me), and yes, it isn't good for your health, it eats you from the indisde. I'm fine, thank you.

 

[hayatei]

That pretty much describes Melee. Still playing it 16 years later, no patches, 3-4 characters dominate the meta and we see the same matchups and players in every Top 8.. Hundreds to thousands of entrants and a thriving competitive scene.

the skill ceiling for some of these melee mechanics are insane. people are grinding 16 years fucking their hands up with arthritis getting godlike at stuff like wave dashing/dash dancing/l-cancelling etc etc. plus smash works in a way that things are always different and freestyle-able. i dont think it's even comparable tbh

i dont think any NRS games currently offer that kind of skill ceiling that you can keep developing for so long

 

[CrimsonShadow]

the skill ceiling for some of these melee mechanics are insane. people are grinding 16 years fucking their hands up with arthritis getting godlike at stuff like wave dashing/dash dancing/l-cancelling etc etc. plus smash works in a way that things are always different and freestyle-able. i dont think it's even comparable tbh

i dont think any NRS games currently offer that kind of skill ceiling that you can keep developing for so long

I wonder, given that NRS is usually experimenting with mechanics from game to game.. What would people want to see added in order to satisfy the desire for mechanics/longevity of meta?

Would be an interesting topic. And imo a neat constructive discussion.

 

[hayatei]

I wonder, given that NRS is usually experimenting with mechanics from game to game.. What would people want to see added in order to satisfy the desire for mechanics/longevity of meta?

Would be an interesting topic. And imo a neat constructive discussion.

100% agreed that'd be a great thread

I'm no game designer but for example I think MKX run + run cancelling was good, but stamina prob wasn't the best way to balance out the fact that we could move forward so fast. Maybe if we also had a way to move back fast (some sort of backdash cancel) + run with no stamina but a bit slower + better backdashes in general the possibilities could've been so much better than the current run mindgames

 

[Roy Arkon]

I wonder, given that NRS is usually experimenting with mechanics from game to game.. What would people want to see added in order to satisfy the desire for mechanics/longevity of meta?

Would be an interesting topic. And imo a neat constructive discussion.

Either added or coming back as well, I'm pretty sure there are mechanics from older MK and NRS games that people would like to see returning. That BTW also goes to systems as well, like the Variation system in MKX which I'm a huge fan of, and I hope it comes back in MK11, whatever if it's 2 oe 3 Variations per char. I also really love the interactables as they add stage awerness to the game, which does add depth to the game overall. Those will be my top 2 that I would love to bring back.

 

[Juggs]

that is just more toxicity on your part, both you, Juggs and others.

Does anyone else think my posts in here are toxic? I don’t get it.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

I wonder, given that NRS is usually experimenting with mechanics from game to game.. What would people want to see added in order to satisfy the desire for mechanics/longevity of meta?

Would be an interesting topic. And imo a neat constructive discussion.

Welp, here's the trend going on in fighting games now. Team building, and easy execution aka auto combos. Can't deny those aspects are DOMINATING this year. If NRS finds a way to implement those two things but still maintain their MK flair, this will be a CLASSIC! I mean, im sure there'e more things, but thats a good start

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Does anyone else think my posts in here are toxic? I don’t get it.

I never get Roy..Hell, I don't even think Roy gets Roy...So I just scroll past his post and get to the good stuff

100% agreed that'd be a great thread

I'm no game designer but for example I think MKX run + run cancelling was good, but stamina prob wasn't the best way to balance out the fact that we could move forward so fast. Maybe if we also had a way to move back fast (some sort of backdash cancel) + run with no stamina but a bit slower + better backdashes in general the possibilities could've been so much better than the current run mindgames

STAMINA! THATS IT! FUCK the stamina system. That needs to be gone.

 

[Roy Arkon]

I never get Roy..Hell, I don't even think Roy gets Roy...So I just scroll past his post and get to the good stuff
.

I get me, you and everyone here. You just keep your denial, and if you truly don't get me I don't know what to tell you.

Now for the acutal topic at hand....

STAMINA! THATS IT! FUCK the stamina system. That needs to be gone.

I think I know the answer for this one, but I still wonder about the hatred towards the Stamina system from some people. After all, the Stamina was added all the way back in UMK3, which is a very well respected game. So how come people love it in UMK3, and MK4, but not in MKX? Not to mention that we have DBFZ in which we have the Super Dash that is basically like the Run except that it has no meter to it, can also go thorugh projectiles and starts a combo on contect. And speaking of DBFZ.....

Welp, here's the trend going on in fighting games now. Team building, and easy execution aka auto combos. Can't deny those aspects are DOMINATING this year. If NRS finds a way to implement those two things but still maintain their MK flair, this will be a CLASSIC! I mean, im sure there'e more things, but thats a good start

NRS' combo system is already very simple both in understanding and execution. Of course it's not super easy and some stuff do require practice, but it's not at the same level of GG, Tekken or even SF. And as for Auto combos, there is a reason why ASW added them to their games, because MVC-style games do require very tight execution, and it's not that it's a perfect system by any means. For example, it auto corrects on crossups, or that it goes to the 3rd hit even on whiff, while strings in NRS games can go on whiff but you need to press more then just one button. Even if NRS/WB do bring back the Tag Team mode, or even making a full Team based game (maybe even MK Vs. DC 2) they won't go that far for adding auto combos of one button.

 

[Matix218]

100% agreed that'd be a great thread

I'm no game designer but for example I think MKX run + run cancelling was good, but stamina prob wasn't the best way to balance out the fact that we could move forward so fast. Maybe if we also had a way to move back fast (some sort of backdash cancel) + run with no stamina but a bit slower + better backdashes in general the possibilities could've been so much better than the current run mindgames

I just think that run in general makes it so you can close distance too fast. It made anti airing so hard because at jump distance you had to be watching for a jump attack, possibly a different jump attack (that depending on the character you or your opponent is using would require using a different anti air) or a run in poke, or a run in throw, or a run in 50/50 in some cases. It made the mind game and "dance" between two players at jump distance much less interesting and basically the run mechanic ended up buffing jumping as a byproduct of its existance (as I described above). I still really like MKX though and I think the run/stamina experiment was an interesting one for sure. Question for you as a top player: In the next MK do you hope they carry over the run mechanic/stamina in some capacity or would you rather them ditch it in favor of more traditional movement like we had in MK9? Just curious

 

[Swindle]

Does anyone else think my posts in here are toxic? I don’t get it.

ToxicFox.

 

[Cursa]

Does anyone else think my posts in here are toxic? I don’t get it.

tbh suprised a mod hasn't banned you yet

/s

 

[coolwhip]

Obviously only he can speak for himself, but I think there's an important point: just because you're doing what you need to do to win, doesn't mean that that's really what you *want* to be doing. And if you're presented with other options in other games, you're free to prefer something else once you've been exposed to it.

This goes for Dragon too, and other players like that -- it's a competitive game, and I have respect for anybody who goes out and does what they need to do to win a tournament. I also have appreciation for players who are able to sense what is going to be strongest in a given meta, early on, and make the most of it. KDZ did that early in Injustice for example. Foxy has done this.

But that doesn't mean that it's the playstyle you *love* and I think we should still allow players to be free about saying that, whether they've taken advantage or not.

He wasn't complaining about the game when he was winning, I think, is the obvious point everyone is making.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

He wasn't complaining about the game when he was winning, I think, is the obvious point everyone is making.

Sonic has been winning since 2014.. Implying he's not allowed to complain now because he didn't win the last couple events seems disingenuous.

He's already proven that he can come back and win tournaments in whatever meta, so I don't think this is applicable to whether he can speak about it now. If he says he prefers putting time into DBFZ to training up a Starfire/Fate or whatever, I'd take him at his word.

 

[Wigy]

Yet another thread where Roy is arguing with a bunch of people. Lord of the shit post.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Yet another thread where Roy is arguing with a bunch of people. Lord of the shit post.

Look who's talking

 

[coolwhip]

Sonic has been winning since 2014.. Implying he's not allowed to complain now because he didn't win the last couple events seems disingenuous.

He's already proven that he can come back and win tournaments in whatever meta, so I don't think this is applicable to whether he can speak about it now. If he says he prefers putting time into DBFZ to training up a Starfire/Fate or whatever, I'd take him at his word.

So you're telling me...Sonic Fox is...really good? Alert the media.

This has nothing to do with the point. First of all, he's "allowed" to say whatever he wants about the game. People are also allowed to take issue with it and call it saltiness due to 1) its timing (after a loss), 2) its irony (he never complained when he was using oppressive characters), 3) its inaccuracy (the black Adam bit)

Also, leeeeeeeeet's make it clear that if Sonic Fox just said "I prefer putting time into DBFZ over training up to a Starfire/Fate or whatever," almost nobody would have a problem with that. Let's not be deliberately obtuse. That's a very flattering paraphrase that doesn't accurately represent the tone nor the content of what he said.

And yes, Sonic has indeed been winning since 2014. In fact, I remember him using Batgirl at the time, and the only complaints he had then was that she "struggled in the neutral"

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So you're telling me...Sonic Fox is...really good? Alert the media.

This has nothing to do with the point. First of all, he's "allowed" to say whatever he wants about the game. People are also allowed to take issue with it and call it saltiness due to 1) its timing (after a loss), 2) its irony (he never complained when he was using oppressive characters), 3) its inaccuracy (the black Adam bit)

Also, leeeeeeeeet's make it clear that if Sonic Fox just said "I prefer putting time into DBFZ over training up to a Starfire/Fate or whatever," almost nobody would have a problem with that. Let's not be deliberately obtuse. That's a very flattering paraphrase that doesn't accurately represent the tone nor the content of what he said.

And yes, Sonic has indeed been winning since 2014. In fact, I remember him using Batgirl at the time, and the only complaints he had then was that she "struggled in the neutral"

Yes, it’s not like he’s focusing on DBFZ because he has to contend with the likes of Dogura, Kazunoko and Go1. He’s just salty and using DBFZ as an excuse. That makes perfect sense.

You know full well that if Sonic decided to put DBFZ down and come back to prioritizing Injustice he’d be winning like he always does. So if he says he’s not motivated to do so (which he did) because he’s not feeling the current meta, I don’t see why that’s salt and not just his usual brand of no-filter directness.

With the number of recent top players saying similar things and making similar moves, I think you have to really question anyone who attempts to reduce this to a ‘Sonic thing’ just because he’s the one to state it most directly. If anything he’s the player least likely to be motivated by inability to win.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I think the flipside of this (which is positive) is that we’ve reached the level of competition where people do need to be truly passionate about the game to avoid being gatekept, and that’s good. No one can really rest on their prior accomplishments, and that says a lot about the deepening strength of the scene as players continue to level up.

But this presents some tougher decisions to anyone who’s sitting on the fence. I said this when Tweedy won CB and I think CEO reinforced it as well.

 

[Roy Arkon]

I think the flipside of this (which is positive) is that we’ve reached the level of competition where people do need to be truly passionate about the game to avoid being gatekept, and that’s good. No one can really rest on their prior accomplishments, and that says a lot about the deepening strength of the scene as players continue to level up.

But this presents some tougher decisions to anyone who’s sitting on the fence. I said this when Tweedy won CB and I think CEO reinforced it as well.

Agree on that one. The competition has been increasing for sure, if you don't put the time to it then it's gonna be tougher for you to win, and it will be a lot more likely for you to lose. If you wanna play more then one game, that's fine, but don't be surprised if you lose later. It's not impossible of course, but indeed a lot harder.

 

[coolwhip]

Yes, it’s not like he’s focusing on DBFZ because he has to contend with the likes of Dogura, Kazunoko and Go1. He’s just salty and using DBFZ as an excuse. That makes perfect sense.

You know full well that if Sonic decided to put DBFZ down and come back to prioritizing Injustice he’d be winning like he always does. So if he says he’s not motivated to do so (which he did) because he’s not feeling the current meta, I don’t see why that’s salt and not just his usual brand of no-filter directness.

With the number of recent top players saying similar things and making similar moves, I think you have to really question anyone who attempts to reduce this to a ‘Sonic thing’ just because he’s the one to state it most directly. If anything he’s the player least likely to be motivated by inability to win.

Are you being willfully dense?

Nobody is saying Sonic isn't good enough. Jesus Christ.

We're saying what he said about Injustice as a game is nothing but salt-induced nonsense. Get it? And it's fine not to like the meta. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is obliged to like the game. But you don't find it the least bit ironic that he didn't complain about it when it was worse but all of a sudden is doing so now?

I understand you will defend Sonic to your grave but this is so obvious: A top player loses, complains on twitter. I don't think anyone attempted to scapegoat him by the way. He's hardly the only one and isn't nearly as big a culprit as other top players. And unlike many of them, he's got the credentials to earn the right to be a sore loser. But that doesn't mean he should get a pass when his actual argument (about particular characters) is pure nonsense.

 

[Matix218]

Are you being willfully dense?

Nobody is saying Sonic isn't good enough. Jesus Christ.

We're saying what he said about Injustice as a game is nothing but salt-induced nonsense. Get it? And it's fine not to like the meta. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is obliged to like the game. But you don't find it the least bit ironic that he didn't complain about it when it was worse but all of a sudden is doing so now?

I understand you will defend Sonic to your grave but this is so obvious: A top player loses, complains on twitter. I don't think anyone attempted to scapegoat him by the way. He's hardly the only one and isn't nearly as big a culprit as other top players. And unlike many of them, he's got the credentials to earn the right to be a sore loser. But that doesn't mean he should get a pass when his actual argument (about particular characters) is pure nonsense.

Plus like Slips was saying in the podcast this game is the tamest as far as overpowered characters and bad matchups compared to all of the other NRS games in which Sonic competed (IGAU1, MK9, MKX) and dominated, but all of the sudden now he starts complaining? The only difference is that he never started losing in those games. It is clearly salt fueled complaints.

Had sonic won the past 2 IGAU2 tournaments these complaints would not have existed. Is he the best fighting game player I have personally ever seen or followed (I am mainly an NRS guy)? Absolutely he is and it's not even close. Are these complaints the result of salt because he is used to always winning or at least not losing 2 majors in a row? Absolutely.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Are you being willfully dense?

Nobody is saying Sonic isn't good enough. Jesus Christ.

We're saying what he said about Injustice as a game is nothing but salt-induced nonsense. Get it? And it's fine not to like the meta. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is obliged to like the game. But you don't find it the least bit ironic that he didn't complain about it when it was worse but all of a sudden is doing so now?

I understand you will defend Sonic to your grave but this is so obvious: A top player loses, complains on twitter. I don't think anyone attempted to scapegoat him by the way. He's hardly the only one and isn't nearly as big a culprit as other top players. And unlike many of them, he's got the credentials to earn the right to be a sore loser. But that doesn't mean he should get a pass when his actual argument (about particular characters) is pure nonsense.

You’ve completely missed my point again. And you dismissing his point is:
1) Completely ignoring the fact that players have been saying similar things on Twitter for months. It’s not just Sonic
2) Ignoring the fact that he’s not the only good player who’s taking a hiatus or going on break right now
3) Forgetting that Sonic is always the guy who just says he’ll come back harder. When he’s salty he says, “I’m salty, I need to hit the lab, I’ll focus again and come back stronger at the next event” and then he does.

I know you have a V for Vendetta against him because he ended your favorite player’s career But come on — if he actually says he doesn’t feel how a game’s meta is shaping up he’s earned that right.

There are some things Sonic has said that are actual nonsense (Joker being top 5) but him not digging the current meta isn’t any different from what anybody else is saying.

 

[coolwhip]

I know you have a V for Vendetta against him because he ended your favorite player’s career But come on — if he actually says he doesn’t feel how a game’s meta is shaping up he’s earned that right.

Have you developped a Donald Trump gimmick that I'm unaware of due to being absent for so long? Because this is literally made up. I guess you're referring to Perfect Legend. HE is my favorite player? Pardon my language but are you fucking insane? Also, even better, I have a vendetta against Fox? When have I ever said anything negative about him? Also, what is there to say about him that's negative? He's by a country mile the best player we've seen in our community and nobody else is in the same stratosphere.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Welp....THIS is getting interesting