The Risk/Reward in NRS Games

[Azarashi Elder]

While I'm contemplating buying and taking INJ2 seriously, my main concern is the balance of the game. I've heard it said, that NRS game balance has gotten better as time goes on and I'm hoping that it's better than what the first Injustice seems to be.

Quick explanation: Risk/Reward is a concept that helps balance games for the better, and ensures that certain moves don't become too OP. If you're at very little risk when performing a move (plus or safe) that move shouldn't yield as much damage, i.e., there is little reward to match the amount of risk.

If the move yields big damage, it should come with more risk. Which means the possible loss of life or resources (negative, unsafe, meter loss, etc.).

Now consider Black Adam in the first game. His Black Magic move is pretty minus, right? However, the move tracks and launches for a combo on hit, meterless. BA can chill at full screen , where he can't be punished for the move... If it's blocked, no big deal, if it's not BAM, divekick into combo.

I'm not implying that he's too strong in that roster. A LOT of those characters are ridiculous. Manhunter has an overhead teleport that tracks and can't be punished. What I'm saying is, that particular move is out of whack, and probably shouldn't launch.

Anyway, I'm wondering if the Risk/Reward is decent in MKX, & how it compares to pre-patch MKX and IGAU. With the removal of certain meterless launchers (see Aquaman and Superman's low scoop) in Injustice 2, where there any characters in any prerelease build (Beta included) that can harass you with highly damaging, low risk moves?

 

[Evil Canadian]

The biggest risk is not playing NRS games
The biggest reward is playing them

god bless safe travels friend

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

With your example, Black magic is definitely not free, not even fullscreen. Off the top of my head Aquaman can punish it with from the deep, DS can punish with guns, Raven can punish with squeeze (df2), Batgirl might be able to punish with teleport, Scorpion can punish with teleport, Flash can do his dashing headbutt (not fullscreen though i think).
Even if you don't get a punish you can get a few dashes in or shoot a projectile that they will have to block/respect.

This is of course if BA is fullscreen, if he's any closer almost everyone can get a full combo or at least a special as a punish.

Overall, the injustice risk/reward ratio is pretty decent imo outside of some outliers. It seems they have that in mind for injustice 2 so far as there are some characters with no 50/50s, or with unsafe ones, or they have high and low starters but they can't go into damage unless they spend a bar and so on.
Personally I think MKX risk/reward ratio is super fucked and in some cases doesn't exist, especially prepatch with some of the safe armored moves and Run cancel characters. Hell Jacqui is the best example for this, both her high and low starters are safe and both go into big damage coz why not..

The biggest difference compared to MKX imo is that you have actual defensive options in injustice. anti-air uppercuts actually work, pushblock is 1 bar only, there are meterless wake-ups, backdashes don't cost any resources, there are now air techs as well as Wagers, pokes can combo into specials.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Ever since i've been here, NRS grows with each installment in some sort, and they also add something new to it which can either be good or backfiring.
I know MKX left a lot of bad taste to many people, but the reason behind that imo its due the fact that they designed the game to function in one way, and as they patched or balanced lot os things who were deemed broke, nothing as a counter balance was added to help nerfed mechanics maintain the core of such characters, this is where imo where NRS has sinned a lot in MKX.

So, this time around they took the legacy perspective with Injustice 2, and there is 2 new mechanics added to it, air recover and MB rolls. There is also a lot of things who are considered sins in MKX like jumping, and ranged strings, super fast 50-50s and an a huge amount of low profiling and wall carry. All these seems to be toned down in I2.
I wouldn't put my hands on the fire just yet, but really hope NRS designs and balance this game way better with what they did with MKX. Lets just play it out and see.

 

[Azarashi Elder]

So, this time around they took the legacy perspective with Injustice 2, and there is 2 new mechanics added to it, air recover and MB rolls. There is also a lot of things who are considered sins in MKX like jumping, and ranged strings, super fast 50-50s and an a huge amount of low profiling and wall carry. All these seems to be toned down in I2..

The 50/50 thing is something I've heard a lot of complaints about, in my short time here. From the description I'm getting, the majority of them were safe in MKX. So actually, that's a perfect example of Risk/Reward being screwed up. If you guess wrong, I get a full combo into a restand or setup. If you guess right, so what? I get to block in time, or make you guess again, and by the way it is a guess. You can't react to what I'm doing.

Atrocitus shows that they're taking steps to correct that situation, because his 50/50 is combo punishable. I really want to see Canary's frame data through, because she can 50/50 with her knee stance move.

With your example, Black magic is definitely not free, not even fullscreen. Off the top of my head Aquaman can punish it with from the deep, DS can punish with guns, Raven can punish with squeeze (df2), Batgirl might be able to punish with teleport, Scorpion can punish with teleport, Flash can do his dashing headbutt (not fullscreen though i think).
Even if you don't get a punish you can get a few dashes in or shoot a projectile that they will have to block/respect..

That's pretty character specific. Let's say I'm Batman okay?

Batarangs aren't punishing Black Magic full screen. They're too slow. Even if Adam gets hit, that's what? 8%? 10%? Magic move hits he dive kicks, confirms and (optionally) burns meter for what, 40% or more? But he's really not getting hit with that move. At best, he's taking 2% chip. Pretty worth it for Adam.

 

[CrazyFingers]

The 50/50 thing is something I've heard a lot of complaints about, in my short time here. From the description I'm getting, the majority of them were safe in MKX. So actually, that's a perfect example of Risk/Reward being screwed up. If you guess wrong, I get a full combo into a restand or setup. If you guess right, so what? I get to block in time, or make you guess again, and by the way it is a guess. You can't react to what I'm doing.

Atrocitus shows that they're taking steps to correct that situation, because his 50/50 is combo punishable. I really want to see Canary's frame data through, because she can 50/50 with her knee stance move.



That's pretty character specific. Let's say I'm Batman okay?

Batarangs aren't punishing Black Magic full screen. They're too slow. Even if Adam gets hit, that's what? 8%? 10%? Magic move hits he dive kicks, confirms and (optionally) burns meter for what, 40% or more? But he's really not getting hit with that move. At best, he's taking 2% chip. Pretty worth it for Adam.

All of Canary's everything was punishable. And I mean like...everything. She had I think two strings that were safe and then her trait. That was it. She's high risk high reward. She hits you with that mix, you eat half your health bar but if you guess right she's getting bopped. NRS so far showing they know how to balance the mix a LOT more.

 

[Captain l2ed]

Nrs has gotten better with time but there will always be some characters that have more/better options than the next. Some will always be more viable than the next such is the ever evolving meta. With that being said, I'm fine with 50/50s as long as they don't loop into more safe mixups.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

That's pretty character specific. Let's say I'm Batman okay?

Batarangs aren't punishing Black Magic full screen. They're too slow. Even if Adam gets hit, that's what? 8%? 10%? Magic move hits he dive kicks, confirms and (optionally) burns meter for what, 40% or more? But he's really not getting hit with that move. At best, he's taking 2% chip. Pretty worth it for Adam.

hmm will straight grapple hook punish? dunno but if it won't he'll have to block it. You can throw batarangs then dash in and he'll have to block them or jump. You can activate trait safely, or if you have them out launch them then dash in to start some offense. Maybe there's an interactable besides you that can punish with. Even if you can't straight up punish you have options to use your own projectiles or dash in for some real estate.

Also from the footage I've seen his dive doesn't go as far as i1, but he'll probably be able to convert off of it, it's also unsafe now so there's that. Black magic is the least of your worries vs BA man, at fullscreen he'll most likely go with lightning strikes as opposed to just raw black magic unless it's a hard read.

 

[UGL Preon]

MK9's risk and reward was decent until you looked at the 10ish tournment viable characters. They were leaps, bounds, and peaks above the rest. It was honestly like 2 separate rosters from 2 different games put together. For every Kabal, Cyrax, Sonya, Freddy, and Kenshi there was a Stryker, a Jade, a Kano, Sheeva, Ermac, Noon Saibot, or Cyber Sub. Polarizing.

Injustice God's Among Us was interesting because some characters broke their backs to get damage like Shazam. Then you have people where they can get 40%+ off of something they can make safe or plus. All Traits weren't made equal.

MKX has a myriad of guessing games in a relatively confined space. (Smallest NRS stages to date) in a game with a run, and half screen carry combos. 2 combos can have you corner to corner. Before XL there were certain midscreen ranges you wouldn't dare throw a projectile because on reaction long reach/advancing armor used to launch. With XL there's still hard to Blockables and some strings that are plus with decent range and end plus.

The main difference between Inj 2 and the predacessors is that we have a cavalcade of defensive options to combat pressure. And if you do a big damage move its blocked, seems as though you're going to get hard mopped with a full combo. Also from what we've seen there's none of that

Oh it's minus 14 but it pushes you 5 yards away so no punish.

Risk Reward is usually the main deciding factor of tier placement in fighting games. Top tier take less risks than low tiers. At least there's no earthshaker this time around.

 

[Azarashi Elder]

Also from the footage I've seen his dive doesn't go as far as i1, but he'll probably be able to convert off of it, it's also unsafe now so there's that. Black magic is the least of your worries vs BA man, at fullscreen he'll most likely go with lightning strikes as opposed to just raw black magic unless it's a hard read.

Oh believe me, I'd rather take chip, or the occasional hit from low lightning than to have my opponent confirm for a combo from full screen away - lul - but here's the thing, if meterless Magic doesn't launch I'm fine with it. Let him burn a bar for the privilege, that's all. Saying "Okay, you don't get to punish, but congrats, you get to move again!" is not a good example of proper risk reward. In that scenario, Adam gets to harass at full screen with no risk, and then once the opponent closes in, he stops and does something else.

Deadshot can get his chip, or his 9 or 10% from fullscreen, and I'll block and move in that scenario. That's fine. If he can confirm, dash in and combo for 24-30%, not so fine... LOL. And I probably wouldn't take the game seriously, if that was the case.

So far, as mentioned, I haven't seen Low Risk/High Reward in INJ2. I'm really hoping it stays that way. Like you said, divekicks are unsafe now. Cheetah can't go into Predator stance, leap and divebomb all day w/o a punish, so.... there's that.

 

[SamZ]

Regardless of how broken MKX was on release, its totally different now. I'm fairly new to fighting games, but I can't remember any company that has totally revamped a game, including netcode and meta, like NRS did for XL. It shows they really care and want to improve their games. Having said that, I hope Injustice 2 has a balanced roster from the start. I have high hopes for Injustice 2.