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The Reasonable Jade Changes thread

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Community Effort.
Jade's most glaring issues as posted in various threads, compiled in one thread after the August patch.

TOP PRIORITY
Her u3 and u2 on wakeup / flawless block don't work as intended.
u2 doesn't reach the opponent a lot of the time and it fails to anti-air crossups
u3 gets lowprofiled

TOP TIER CHANGES
1. BF1 Meterburn to jail into the second Glaive within a certain range so that the pressure is legitimate.
This change was widely requested and agreed upon by the Jade community because currently Meterburn Glaive is dead as a pressure tool and it gets blown up on reaction.

2. Pole Vault's overall usability (further) increased.
A step in the right direction was made in the recent patch but Vault still gets low profiled and otherwise made useless by a large portion of the cast.
For a special move that an entire variation is centered around, a +3 meterburn high is not enough of a reason to play this variation over Emerald Defender.
It's just bad.

3. Her Suicide Strings adjusted to be less Suicide.
F4,1 - This string has little use because of its slow 18f startup and -14 block unsafety. F4 itself can technically "highprofile" pokes but due to its speed (the lack thereof) it's currently mostly useless because of how pokes come out over half as fast and there is literally no way you can use F4 to jump over them.
The widely agreed upon solution would be a longer blockstun on the last hit and a faster startup on the F4 that would place it in line with other F4s in the game.
B1,2 - This string is widely considered her worst or second worst button and is literal suicide to use.
B1 being a 15f mid and -15 on block, with b1,2 ending in -19 and little to no reason to use, this string could use some attention seeing as several moves with similar reach and properties lead to gigantic damage and start up faster.
F2 is just trash. 28f, suicide on block, suicide on flawless block, her only launcher, doesn't even lead to much damage even on hit compared to what the rest of the cast can do, nobody's gonna get hit with that.
B2 should either be + or a mid.

4. Her Projectile Immunity made immune to projectiles or non-suicidal.
12f to startup and 44f before she can move afterwards, Glow is one of the worst offenders of horrible frame data in the game currently at an inertia state of 56f, literally rendering her helpless if activated outside of very specific situations. At the moment, it's more reasonable to block projectiles rather than to risk getting full combo punished for using Glow currently, especially in matchups where she'd desperately need Glow to stand a chance such as Cetrion.
The suggestion would be 12f startup and 18f before she can move. This would make Glow a viable option even in matchups like Shang Tsung or Cetrion where she has to contend with Zoning that Glow doesn't even work against.
Alternatively it could just work against zoning, period, so that there would be no zoning moves / projectiles etc it does not work against but still full combo punishable for teleporters like Cetrion.

5. F3 adjusted to roster standards
With a range comparable to a D1 and a 16f startup, this is objectively the worst low in the game that leads to no impressive combo damage to begin with.
Making it 8-9f would be perfectly reasonable as there is little reason to block high against Jade to begin with but at least she'd have a close range move that she can rely on when all else fails. Due to the diminutive damage it leads to, there is no reason not to have this move very fast.

UTILITY CHANGES
1. Issues with B3, the uselessness of n3
Standing 3 is a high that otherwise shares its frame data with B3.
My suggestion would be to replace 3 with B3 and remove B3 entirely, thus turning her pressure string B3434 into simply 3434.
This would solve issues where after a poke such as D1 or D4 we get a B4 / sweep instead of the actual B3.

2. D1's hit advantage adjusted to roster standards.
Currently, Jade has no poke that starts her turn effectively, especially online.
Even Offline it's fairly easy to lose your turn after a d1 on hit. Increasing its hit advantage by 2 frames would be enough.
 
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Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Gunna take this opportunity to post an ever-evolving wish list of mine that would make Jade a much more notable threat up close in this stagger-heavy game while nerfing her oppressive zoning in those matchups where the opponent has to spend 10 years getting in. Before I get into the very long list of shit I'd like for her, let's get into the issues I want to address with the changes.

What are Jade's core strengths?
  • Poking
  • Hitbox range (without increasing hurtbox range)
  • Anti-airing
  • Zoning (mainly ED, but not exclusively)
  • Staggers (mainly Jaded, but not exclusively)
Where does she source these core strengths from?
  • D4
  • B2
  • Knockback distances on hit
  • D2
  • B343
  • Glow
  • Multiple projectile areas (ED)
  • Multiple stagger options (Jaded)
What are Jade's core weaknesses?
  • Consistent / punish combo damage potential
  • Startup frames
  • Pressure (mixups, staggers, and safety)
  • Worthwhile tools
  • KB power
Where does she source these core weaknesses from?
  • No amp'd (or otherwise) stun / launcher special
  • F2, F4, F3, B1, 4, F4, Glaive, up glaive (ED), parry, glow, vault (Jaded)
  • F2 only OH outside of air attacks, F3 only low starter at 16f, limited safe options (F4, B3/B343/B3434, F3/F34/F343) with only one being fast on start up (B3)
  • Parry, B1/B12, F3/F343, Butterfly (outside corner combos), 43, 3, F43 are all extremely subpar and generally should not be used 99% of the time
  • No reason to block high against her so 124 KB is a rarity in landing, Parry is too slow and not worth burning meter on if you're crazy enough to use it to build to the KB, and Nitro Kick KB is so damn easy to scout out. As such, Grab and D2 KBs are the only ones that are seen frequently
To rebalance Jade's general kit, I came to the following conclusions:
  • Combo damage (and lack of a launcher) is intentional to make up for her pokes. NRS have said so themselves that she isn't meant to be a combo character, and I wholeheartedly agree with them. The issue is that pokes / zoning only goes so far because someone is GOING to get in. As such, her ability to contest someone at close range needs buffing without making her combo damage too powerful; but I do believe combo CONSISTENCY could be increased.
  • If she's going to be stronger up close, she can't be so strong from afar or else her already positive matchups will edge towards that oppressive 7-3. Her projectiles need some power shaved off to compensate her increase in close range combat ability.
  • Her frames are randomly just complete and utter ass on tools that have no reason to be like that (very high risk, basically no reward). A rebalancing of her generally useless tools should give her more options to play with to help increase her variability between matchups so those who bypass her core tools don't basically ignore her as a character anymore.
  • She needs more KB consistency. She's meant to be a reactive, poke-happy character so her KB requirements reflect that; but multiple of her KBs don't work well in practice during an actual match. As such, either her KB requirements or the moves that result in them need some buffs. That, and NRS has already set the precedent that new KBs can be introduced so I played with that idea too.
Without further adieu, enjoy this long list of numbers and text that I don't expect a single soul here to read:
Attacks:

  • 1: F21 hitboxes active at all points of the staff being pulled down by Jade so it no longer whiffs on aerial opponents. F2 startup 26f (from 28).
  • 2: B1 11f startup (from 15).
  • 3: B12 made safer at longer distances (-12 from -19 so it's just dash attack punishable). 2 damage now 80 (from 70)
  • 4: F4 second kick now an OH. Damage now 45 (from 58.5). EDIT: Now -6 on block (from -4)
  • 5: F41 now has very large pushback on block (on par with Kabal's extended hook). Still -14 so punishable by dash attacks, but not combo punishable.
  • 6: F3 14f startup (from 16). Damage now 25 (from 30)
  • 7: F343 now special cancelable at the end. F343 now floats a little more. Damage now 40 (from 50) on third hit
  • 8: 3 is now a mid with 9f startup (from 11) and -4 on block (from -1). Slightly increased pushback when used at far distances
  • 9: D1 now +12 on hit (from +11)
Specials:
  • 10: Combo damage scaling after Butterfly increased
  • 11: Butterfly floats a little more
  • 12: Ground Glaive (amped and regular) now jails after B3, B343, 21, 43, F3, F34, and F343
  • 13: Amp'd ground glaive now -8 on block (from -7)
  • 14: All projectiles' damage now 50 (from 60)
  • 15: All projectiles' chip now 1.250 (from 1.750)
  • 16: Parry 9f startup (from 12). Hit advantage 15 (from 22). Damage 70 (from 57)
  • 17: Amp'd Parry additional damage lowered to stay at 165.30 despite change to regular Parry. Parry KB damage kept the same (230 regular, 344 amp'd)
  • 18: Nitro Kick now goes slightly further (from half screen to 2/3rds, same as Johnny's kick now). Damage now 80 (from 60). 14f startup (from 12)
  • 19: Amp'd Nitro Kick damage now 80 (from 60)
Variation-specific:
  • 20: ED - Air Glaive -20f on block (from -23)
  • 21: ED - Amp'd Air Glaive -10f on block (from -1)
  • 22: ED - Combo damage scaling after amp'd up-glaive and air glaive increased
  • 23: Jaded - New KB: if a regular vault lands after having defensively canceled twice AND canceled into two kicks that have landed, the vault will do 320 damage
And.. that's it. Just a "short" list of ~23 changes that I feel would make Jade infinitely more fun to play as (AND against for those characters that so easily get zoned out by her). A lot of these changes even out her available options' power levels so she has more ways to confirm damage while simultaneously lowering the damage of each individual hit. She'll be able to stagger / open opponents up more without having to risk her damn life at every attempt, but will still need to work at getting that damage in. She will also have easier access to her three other base kit KBs (124, Nitro Kick, Parry) due to the various changes around those abilities (new OH on F4 + F2 slightly faster to help 124 catch people out more frequently, Nitro Kick goes further, Parry is now faster and does a little more damage normally) which should result in more explosive damage spikes during matches. F2's speed increase, F343's juggling ability increase + special cancel ability, and Butterfly's increased floating will generally result in more frequent combo threats that the opponent may need to break out of, making Jade's pop-up KBs potentially more threatening when they do occur. Overall, I'd love the hell out of this Jade so much because I wouldn't feel forcefully restrained all the time in what moves I get to use.
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Gunna take this opportunity to post an ever-evolving wish list of mine that would make Jade a much more notable threat up close in this stagger-heavy game while nerfing her oppressive zoning in those matchups where the opponent has to spend 10 years getting in.
Literally this. You spend 80 seconds dealing glaive chip on flawless blocks and then lose the game in 10 seconds when they get in
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I mean, she has 2 of the worst buttons in the game.

F2 and F3 are both trash. F4 might be the worst F4 too but I haven't compiled those yet.

She's not allowed to be good. I'm convinced NRS hates her.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Administrator
Premium Supporter
People spend too much time focusing on the bad parts of a character rather than the good parts. If they gave Geras a 40-frame fully-punishable normal that didn’t lead to anything, in addition to his current tools, there are users who would claim he sucked because he had such a terrible move.

I don’t care how many shitty moves a character has. Just don’t use them. Focus on the good tools they have. I win with Kollector almost every time I use him, and I think I only use 4, f2, f3, and b2.

If you don’t like Jade’s f3, don’t use it. I think it’s awesome. It’s a safe, staggerable, tic-throw machine. f3 throw. f32 throw. f3 b343. f32 b343. Confirmable into bf1. Just awesome.

Focus on the good, not the bad, and I promise you will find more enjoyment and success.
 

Vhozite

Waiting on SF6
I mean the character is cool but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't ask for bad tools to be better. When too much of a characters power is focus in one part or a small handful of their kit you end up with characters like Liu who are good but linear as fuck because 90% of the time they are doing one thing.

Cetrion is great but i don't think there is a user on TYM who thinks Geyser KB isn't stupid as fuck. But because their character is good they gotta hold having a KB that is pretty much impossible to use? I mean sure i guess but i think that's dumb, especially when fixing broken stuff like that doesn't prevent NRS from doing the same thing to other characters.

And before anyone says it everyone here appreciates her good tools. We all know air glaive is dope as fuck. But generally speaking people are more prone to discuss problems than they are things that are good and don't need to be addressed.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
My reaction as a non-complaining-but-still-winning low tier Kano player, every time I see a thread about Jade buffs:

And if you knew anything about the character you'd understand that these aren't even buffs just the same level of shit as Johnny players not wanting their stuff to whiff on crouch block.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
The glow being punishable is still a huge bill lol. The move is 56f total, but any range where the jade would be zoning you absolutely cannot react and punish. Considering human reaction time, the fact that reaction time would in turn be slowed down due to looking out for projectiles, the speed of the moves that can punish, and possible online delay, you can’t react and punish from a range where she should be doing it. If I see someone record random slots of a jade doing glow and punished on reaction then I’ll believe but until then, niggas is lying
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Focus on the good, not the bad, and I promise you will find more enjoyment and success.
While I have learned to do this since a couple weeks after launch, it doesnt mean this isnt an interesting discussion / thought exercise to have. What if NRS did come in and shift characters' power budgets so more tools were genuinely useful? How would that affect characters like this that have rather lopsided budgets (Jade, Liu, Lao, Kano, etc.)?

I dont expect anything like this to ever come to pass, in part or in full (especially not my massive list that literally overhauls the character), but it's fun to think about in my opinion. Jade's a tough cookie and I love her to pieces, but it will always irk me that so many of her tools may as well be ignored which is why I'm always obnoxiously present in these sorts of threads.

In conclusion, I think Jade is overall fine, especially with some of the nerfs to the top tiers. I'd still absolutely LOVE to see other tools be worthwhile though (and air glaive nerfed the hell out of to compensate cause that thing is bonkers).
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
My reaction as a non-complaining-but-still-winning low tier Kano player, every time I see a thread about Jade buffs:

Jade's in a good place, but people are always gonna want their mains to be S tier. I wanted Cassie to be S tier and I got that, but it's not all that it's cracked up to be. As a wise man once said, "It's okay if your main is mid-tier."

Tho, there's beauty in having people quit on you when you play Kano and even if he's low tier I still love him dearly. BUT GIVE THE MAN SOME MIDS.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Other characters having issues is not invalidated by the fact that your character has them too.
Going into the threads of these characters to post gifs is probably fun under a certain IQ but it doesn't help this discussion so please stop? Thanks.
I hope Kano gets treated well too.

Right now, it feels like NRS hates Jade and probably Kano too.
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Other characters having issues is not invalidated by the fact that your character has them too.
Going into the threads of these characters to post gifs is probably fun under a certain IQ but it doesn't help this discussion so please stop? Thanks.
I hope Kano gets treated well too.

Right now, it feels like NRS hates Jade and probably Kano too.
Everything is balanced a certain way for a reason. NRS has learned their lesson as far as laundry-lists of buffs. She's in a good place right now, and NRS isn't going to rush to buff her. It's just the reality of it and you know that.

All this thread accomplishes is venting, which is okay, but be prepared for some reality checks.

I see that you're upset and defensive about this whole thing so you don't want to have people saying you're wrong, but replying with "no YOU'RE stupid" is kind of funny, no?
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Everything is balanced a certain way for a reason. NRS has learned their lesson as far as laundry-lists of buffs. She's in a good place right now, and NRS isn't going to rush to buff her. It's just the reality of it and you know that.

All this thread accomplishes is venting, which is okay, but be prepared for some reality checks.

I see that you're upset and defensive about this whole thing so you don't want to have people saying you're wrong, but replying with "no YOU'RE stupid" is kind of funny, no?
Again, going into threads of characters you don't even play and posting gifs just because your character loses to those characters isn't going to accomplish much. Posting gifs and trying to offend people is stupid. What, you were expecting praise for your posting or what?

Yes, I'm defensive. Jade hasn't been a good character for ten years and she isn't good right now either. If you played her you'd understand this.

Kano is arguably in a worse place, though, so I understand that you'd feel it unjust if Jade got buffed and Kano didn't.

Which is why I said, and I mean it, that I hope he'll also get treated well.
Now let's stop derailing this thread with your feelings and focus on the purpose of the thread.
Feel free to contribute if you know something about Jade that we do not.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Adding to the OP: Her u3 and u2 on wakeup / flawless block don't work as intended.
u2 doesn't reach the opponent a lot of the time and it fails to anti-air crossups
u3 gets lowprofiled
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Would you be willing to trade valuable buffs over a massive nerf to her scrubby d2?
Look at its frame data and git gud if you find her d2 hard to deal with.
It literally gets destroyed by throws and lowprofiled by standing lows during its active frames lmfao

Her D2 works as intended. If you get hit by it, its honestly your fault for jumping or whiffing highs near her.
^This.
 
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