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The Outcry of Fatal Blows

xKhaoTik

Kitana Kahn
I’m having a hard time trying to understand all the crying about fatal blows.

I mean, in MK9, X-rays were safe across the board, had instant armor, can be used more than once, did great damage and some of them even started combos. I don’t remember any crying then

MKX, I believe there were some xrays that were unsafe, but those also had pushback, instant armor, can be used more than once, great damage and some lead to combos. I believe there was an X-ray that was plus on block in that game as well. No crying there.

But for some reason, fatal blows in this game DO NOT have instant armor, EVERY SINGLE ONE is unsafe on block, some of them have crap damage and scaling thanks to the button press timing thing, DO NOT lead into combos, AND CAN ONLY BE USED ONCE IF YOU HIT WITH IT. This somehow caused a huge uproar about fatal blows being OP and I really don’t understand

My only issue with fatal blow is that it should not come back if you miss or it’s blocked. Other than that, they seem fine to me. Am I missing something?
 
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Lt. Boxy Angelman

MY SHAPE IS MY SHAPE
Premium Supporter
The strike-throw meta in a game where throws do 14% and you spend half the fight crouching, and 19% D2 KB's that get you some of the game's biggest damage for minimal effort, will always be worse to me than Fatal Blows.

Double the recharge time for if you pop one and miss, and they'll be square.
 
For me, it's not so much the mechanics of it, it's just watching a lengthy cinematic for the million'th time.

It would be nice if they were shorter and snappier (which is what i appreciate about KBs).

e.g.
- If Lui Kang's FB was a cool "one inch punch" (disregarding the redundancy of it being part of one of his fatalies).
It would be visually cool without too much of an interuption in gameplay and would be still appropriately devastating.

Video below just to give you an idea of what i mean.

As a compromise if NRS just had a "short FB cinematic" toggle would be nice.
 
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They are so long, even NRS decided to add a meaningless mini game during the FB with those skull and shield things. Maybe making them go permanently during a match after missing it would help.
 

DoDaMuSiC

Ermac ftw
Me personally i dont have a problem with it other that it should be one time move regardless of hitting/missing it, but what i see from most people is how free you can use it, in mk9 and mkx you had to spend all your bars to use it, same bars you use to extend combos, armor moves and breakers, while in mk11 you literally get it for free, and now that they do full damage on armor breakers, they are even more powerful than before cuz literally any launcher into it while it breaks armor will do close to 50% damage.
They give you the feel that you are being rewarded from losing, and giving you a super come back mechanic that can bring back any life deficit you were. Especially FBs like Jax where it gives amazing oki after it and gives him access to 2 kbs right after immediately (f2/f33 1+3 and forward throw). It puts you in a scenario that you could have a 90% life lead against him, he hits you with a d2 kb into fb armor break that will do upwards of 50% into oki that you have to guess between 3 30% kbs (command grab and the other 2 mentioned above) into you’re dead.
 

LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
Didn’t expect a player with this much knowledge and common sense (especially for this forum, lol) to compare fatal blows to x rays. In MK11 you get this incredibly good resource basically for free. IMO that’s the main problem, except the fact that it comes back after the opponent blocks it etc.
 

Arqwart

Lean, mean, and +14
There is some hardcore false equivalence going on here. X-Rays had a HUGE investment cost because using one left you with 0 meter, not to mention they required you building up / saving 3 bars. Meter in MK9/X was key for offense (combos), defense (armored moves), and survival (breakers). In addition, you had to all-in on X-Rays. If that shit was blocked or whiffed, your meter was still gone. Meanwhile FBs are a free tool granted by just getting hurt, don't compete with any other resources, and return on their own after 10s.

I don't agree with much of the outcry against FBs, but let's not pretend they are just the same as X-Rays.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
Its resourceless.

As a frost player i have won SO many fraudulent matches with the fear of her fatal blow.

Also they very regularly go unpunished at the highest level on block and whiff.

mk9 and mkx they basically never got used at the highest level outside of a couple of yolos. At the highest level on mk11 youre lucky if both players havent at least tried to use theirs every game.
 

Thingy

Send the Wolf
In a perfect world armor would removed completely from FBs...that said, I am okay with letting it rock as is. It's whatever really.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
As a frost player i have won SO many fraudulent matches with the fear of her fatal blow.
I dont see it as fraudulent at all. If your opponent didnt modify his approach once the FB was in play, why is that your fault or the FB's fault. If I'm neck to neck with my opponent and we both get FBs at the same time, it would be foolish of me to go on as though they don't exist. Then, if I get hit by it, that's my fault.
I was in a game where I had 45% health and the opponent had 10%. I tried to grab, he read it, D2 KB into FB and I lost. Completely fair in my eyes. I was predictable, I got read like a book and I got punished hard for it. Ultimately, if Im overall better than my opponent, I know that these crazy comebacks with FBs ae the exception rather than the rule.

Also they very regularly go unpunished at the highest level on block and whiff.
That I think should be changed. Like if you go for FB, it should be VERY punishable, for everyone.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
I refuse to believe you're this naive.

Almost nobody complained about FB (X-ray) in MK9 and X coz those games had way bigger problems. The first one had totally broken characters and the second one was 50/50 fiesta with run button.

MK 11 has its own problems but none of them is at the level of those mentioned earlier.

That's why you see way more complaining about FB now. To be honest - the idea you can easily do 43-55% of one combo into FB was always dumb and in MK 11 it's even dumber, coz it's 100% free and if you fuck it up.... no worries you can try again in a moment.
 
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ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
The meter system in general is fucked in MK11. They had a good thing with MK9, brought it back for MKX, then ditched it for this auto shit.

Same reason some people complained about Ultras in SF4. Super meter was tied to several things and required building. Ultras were the most powerful attacks and were tied to taking damage.

But in SF4 at least you had to set them up or combo into them. And there was focus attack as an alternative to building the meter. Not like Fatal Blows.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Its resourceless.

As a frost player i have won SO many fraudulent matches with the fear of her fatal blow.

Also they very regularly go unpunished at the highest level on block and whiff.

mk9 and mkx they basically never got used at the highest level outside of a couple of yolos. At the highest level on mk11 youre lucky if both players havent at least tried to use theirs every game.
I like the way the fear of it impacts the game. The tension is interesting and I'm totally fine with that aspect.

I would like them to only regenerate in between rounds. You won't be able to lame your way to another attempt waiting for it to reload, and you may not even get another chance to use it. Seems like a decent compromise that doesn't totally nix the idea of getting a second shot, but would force you to think a lot harder about just tossing it out like it's free candy.

I really don't care enough about them one way or the other. I think it's weird they haven't done something around the regen aspect, but if they never do I'm fine enough with it to play.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Its resourceless.

As a frost player i have won SO many fraudulent matches with the fear of her fatal blow.

Also they very regularly go unpunished at the highest level on block and whiff.

mk9 and mkx they basically never got used at the highest level outside of a couple of yolos. At the highest level on mk11 youre lucky if both players havent at least tried to use theirs every game.
Heh yeah or like Kabal's.

Erron's is easier to deal with than it used to be tho ya gotta hug the ground (fight changes still). But how it originally was was so absurd, how it got out of QA or whatever is too funny.

But yeah it's a big diff that in MKX the X-ray took investment while in MK11 FB doesn't.
 

John_NX

Your circumstances are dire!
Heh yeah or like Kabal's.

Erron's is easier to deal with than it used to be tho ya gotta hug the ground (fight changes still). But how it originally was was so absurd, how it got out of QA or whatever is too funny.

But yeah it's a big diff that in MKX the X-ray took investment while in MK11 FB doesn't.
Exactly this. Why are full screen fatal blows still a thing in this "neutral based" game?
 
I’m having a hard trying to understand all the crying about fatal blows.

I mean, in MK9, X-rays were safe across the board, had instant armor, can be used more than once, did great damage and some of them even started combos. I don’t remember any crying then

MKX, I believe there were some xrays that were unsafe, but those also had pushback, instant armor, can be used more than once, great damage and some lead to combos. I believe there was an X-ray that was plus on block in that game as well. No crying there.

But for some reason, fatal blows in this game DO NOT have instant armor, EVERY SINGLE ONE is unsafe on block, some of them have crap damage and scaling thanks to the button press timing thing, DO NOT lead into combos, AND CAN ONLY BE USED ONCE IF YOU HIT WITH IT. This somehow caused a huge uproar about fatal blows being OP and I really don’t understand

My only issue with fatal blow is that it should not come back if you miss or it’s blocked. Other than that, they seem fine to me. Am I missing something?
I think somewhere in that list you completely forgot that X-Rays in MK9 and MKX were not part of the meta as meter was way too valuable for combo breakers.

So here's you explanation:

Nobody complained because nobody got hit by them. Now everybody gets hit by them every other game and so people get pissed about them.

It's that easy.
 

Wigy

There it is...
I dont see it as fraudulent at all. If your opponent didnt modify his approach once the FB was in play, why is that your fault or the FB's fault. If I'm neck to neck with my opponent and we both get FBs at the same time, it would be foolish of me to go on as though they don't exist. Then, if I get hit by it, that's my fault.
I was in a game where I had 45% health and the opponent had 10%. I tried to grab, he read it, D2 KB into FB and I lost. Completely fair in my eyes. I was predictable, I got read like a book and I got punished hard for it. Ultimately, if Im overall better than my opponent, I know that these crazy comebacks with FBs ae the exception rather than the rule.


That I think should be changed. Like if you go for FB, it should be VERY punishable, for everyone.
its fraudulent because against a bunch of characters i can whiff or have it blocked and go unpunished. I didnt earn it and likely if it hits i win, if not i get it back next game.

you jump. Die
Projectile. Die
Normal. Die

i love making liu kang eat frozen sick on KL but i can recognise its not a good mechanic IMO
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
I’m having a hard time trying to understand all the crying about fatal blows.

I mean, in MK9, X-rays were safe across the board, had instant armor, can be used more than once, did great damage and some of them even started combos. I don’t remember any crying then

MKX, I believe there were some xrays that were unsafe, but those also had pushback, instant armor, can be used more than once, great damage and some lead to combos. I believe there was an X-ray that was plus on block in that game as well. No crying there.

But for some reason, fatal blows in this game DO NOT have instant armor, EVERY SINGLE ONE is unsafe on block, some of them have crap damage and scaling thanks to the button press timing thing, DO NOT lead into combos, AND CAN ONLY BE USED ONCE IF YOU HIT WITH IT. This somehow caused a huge uproar about fatal blows being OP and I really don’t understand

My only issue with fatal blow is that it should not come back if you miss or it’s blocked. Other than that, they seem fine to me. Am I missing something?
For the record, people above me have hit on the same points, but I agree totally because I think this is the worst mechanic in MK11. I like MK11 for the record, but this is one of those things that's been here since day 1 that I hate and it's been largely unaddressed.

In MK9 and MKX, resource management was still a part of the game. In both games if you were somehow so supremely fortunate/crafty, or in the case of MK9 played a character where you had an advantage, getting a 3-bar unbreakable x-ray was totally fine, and their safeness or lack thereof was fine because your using it was a testament to your resource management skills. You had to not spend bars in a situation where they were much more beneficial short-term benefits because you had such faith in your ability to win that you were counting long-term on your use of unbreakable, guaranteed damage.

In MK11, the only thing you need to do to get Fatal Blow? Is lose. You have to lose and lose and lose and lose until you get within the frame of HP where you can use FB, and then you use a free launcher to get 45-65% unbreakable damage, and then the game is instantly even. It's a mechanic that rewards losing and playing below your opponent. It's the only truly universal "armored" thing in the game, in a game where a major recent change was "anti-armor" moves that are often too slow to negate it. It's an "f you" button that guarantees at least 30% unbreakable if you land it by mashing in unsafe situations. And it takes ZERO RESOURCES. You don't have to be smart or earn it. You don't have to conserve a resource that you've earned by being cautious or employing some strategy. Every loser in the game gets it. By losing.

And the icing on the cake is that a bunch of these moves have pushback. So basically this is the situation: you press the two triggers at once after losing for awhile, an INFINITELY easy thing to do if you're losing and notice on an off-second that you've been losing so bad that you have FB, and your opponent blocks. In this situation, for the most part, the highest possible upside is that they can forward dash and then cancel into their unique, specific fastest-punishing move, often for less-than-optimal damage.

Fatal Blow is a terrible, garbage, poorly-thought-through mechanic. I don't disagree with comeback mechanics on principle, I'm a big fan of the way they work in Tekken and KI. But in MK11 you can jab string confirm into 40%-60% unbreakable damage, and that doesn't sit right with me, because it rewards losing and playing recklessly in a way that would be totally damning in any other game.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I think the crying about FBs is overblown, but agree there are some majorly dumb, un-fun things to how they work (which could be easily fixed in NRS wants to).

First, the common complaints I don't really agree with:
1. FBs are cheap and scrubby because they cost no resources--you don't have to earn them.
Well look, for better or worse, NRS decided that resource management was not going to be a big part of this game. People complain that it's scrubby, but ya know, people complained that in Inj2 it was too easy to run away and zone to build meter. Love auto-meter or hate it, but it it puts all playstyles on an equal playing field, and removes the incentive to turtle. The game wants you to use meter--go ahead and amplify, it comes back! It makes the game more aggressive and fun.

Same concept: The game wants you to use your super move. You can be more aggressive with meter use, and still retain a big backup weapon to work with. It encourages more risk-taking and dynamic play.

It's a false complaint anyway. The FB itself is a resource; you can only use it once and it's gone. And you have to win at least one round without using it, so it's never going to be the only deciding factor in a match.

2. FBs are cheap and scrubby because you can only use it when you're losing--it's an unfair advantage to the worse player.
I mean yeah, MK11 is full of comeback mechanics. But again, that's what people say they want. Especially when watching pros, people say they want some suspense, so the door has to be open for an upset. Hell, even the round-by-round system (instead of two health bars) is itself a comeback mechanic that advantages the worse player.

Yeah, it sucks to get sucker punched with a FB by a scrub. But again, they can only do that once; if you lose two rounds, it's your own fault. And is there anyone who can honestly claim they've never used FB to steal a game they probably should have lost? Works both ways.

Anyway, that all said, there are definitely some really annoying and dumb aspects to FBs that should be fixed:
1. For some, just the threat of FB completely shuts down the opponent's play, which IS an unfair advantage.
You know who I'm talking about: Kabal, Frost, Erron Black, Jax... anyone who has a nearly unreactable startup (especially online) and can hit you from pretty much anywhere on screen--now that is ridiculous. It's like you get punished for getting your opponent down to 30%, because now you literally can't do anything but crouch or block or you'll be destroyed.

I'm ok with the comeback mechanic, but the burden still needs to be on the losing player to make a good play and open up their oppo to land the FB. But some toons get an insane amount of free pressure just for losing, and that's definitely wrong. They need to be a lot slower or have a lot less range.

2. A lot of characters face no risk in going for FB, which again is an unfair advantage.
Just because the game wants you to use it doesn't mean you should get to throw it out there with no risk. A lot of FBs are completely unpunishable, and they all regenerate very quickly. That needs to be toned down. Again, you should still have to make a good play, and it's fair to face consequences if you make a bad play.

I think if you have a full-screen FB, you should only get to attempt it once per round; if I block or dodge it, my reward is that it's off the table for the rest of the round. And if you have a melee-distance FB, it should be full combo punishable with no pushback.

Anyhoo, just my two cents.
 

Dankster Morgan

she don’t call me daddy she call me Grandmaster
As other people have said, it's resourceless. In the last 4 games, saving up bar for x-ray or super meant leaving some kind of ex special a character may have needed for substantial damage, pressure, safety, zoning, or anything really, depends on the character. In this game you not only get those resources replenishing automatically but you get fatal blow until it hits. Yes you can use an x-ray more than once, but lets be serious, how many games have y'all played where one or both players hit an x-ray or super? How many have you played in MK11 where a fatal blow is landed? It's pretty obvious that it's the increased frequency combined with a free resource that pisses people off, it's not like people think the fatal blows are actually better than a loaded x-ray, but a free fatal blow is way better than a hypothetical x-ray nobody will use.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
I find a lot of things in this game to be a little odd as far as logic goes. Apparently they wanted to universalize a lot of things, for example the auto meter build and the wakeups, specifically the U3s. Although I don't wholeheartedly agree with automatically regenerating meter, I do understand why they did it. It was easier to just have it auto-regen than to fix the way it worked in previous games. Some characters built meter for days just because of their archetype (characters who were meant to zone, characters who could loop strings into plus frames by spending a bar, repeat the same string and they've built another bar from chip to ex it again and make you hold) while others were starved because they weren't meant to constantly use specials or didn't have access to 10 second loop-able blockstrings. So instead of awarding a bit of meter for blocking against pressure or neuching projectiles, they made it auto regen. Fine with it.

My complaints about U3s and fatal blows are pretty much the same. In a game where they set out to universalize things and emphasize the neutral, they give some characters SO much range on their U3s and others get point blank U3s. Some are punishable on block, some aren't. Scorp's U3 is only -2 on block ffs. I don't really agree with making the vast majority of U3's safe on block. If you choose to spend meter and wake up with an attack that gives you hit advantage after being knocked down, you should be punished on block like in MK9 and MKX. Moreso in MK11 where you can also wake up with buttons, jump, roll, etc. It's weird because NRS made it a point to make sure every short hop attack was punishable on block. I believe the safest one is -9, most are -11 to -13ish.

Fatal blows. As others have previously posted, they're not tied to any resources which I believe is a first for an NRS game. You only x-rayed/supered to style in previous games because after you spent it you had NOTHING. No combo extenders, no breaker, no clash. Though I do understand why they made the choice to have it come back in 10 seconds. They gave Johnny the FB cancel early in development, and later gave the same to Joker. So it has to come back unfortunately. But my main gripe is the discrepancy of range on fatal blows. Some characters just have the ability to paralyze you from half/full screen once they fall below 30%. Frost, Jax, Kabal, Erron, Noob, etc. Put the controller down.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

MY SHAPE IS MY SHAPE
Premium Supporter
This game is Violent Smash.

That's all.

They saw Smash become an EVO mainstay in spite of being a party game and said "why not us?"

Good for them for embracing a working popularity formula, but I myself will never be able to see this game as seriously competitive. Ever. They could unlock Customs in Ranked tomorrow and make all money legal, and it still wouldn't be enough to make me take this seriously.

I hope they keep IJ3 on the legacy path and don't change a damn thing.