The New Top Tier Characters (Post East Coast Throwdown)

[M2Dave]

I am aware this thread exists, but the discussion is dead. From playing and watching the game, particularly what was seen last weekend at East Coast Throwdown, who do you think are the new and current top tier characters (i.e., the top 10)? Here is what I think at the moment (alphabetical order).

- Cetrion (Spring Cleaning)

- Geras (New Era, Infinite Warden, Eternal)

- Jacqui (1st Round KO)

- Jax (Hunker Down)

- Johnny Cage (Outtake)

- Kitana (Highborn)

- Liu Kang (Luohan Quan)

- Nightwolf (Matoka Warrior)

- Sonya (Ring Master)

- Sub Zero (Avalanche)

Honorable mentions - Frost (Arctic Anarchy) and Kabal (Clean Cut, Speed Demon)

What do you think? Who are the new and current top tier characters?

 

[haketh]

I think Frost is very good but I wouldn't put Cassie above her honestly, entirely to well rounded a character while Frost still has some holes

 

[Iustinus]

- Frost - the augers in the third variation add another layer of depth to Frost's strings and mid range game. Apparently, the augers do not jail all characters, though. Could she become another Show Stopper? Time will tell.

So did new variations affect the meta?

 

[M.D.]

I'd say the Top 5 are, not ordered:

Geras
Sonya
Liu Kang
Cetrion
Jacqui

In terms of tools, they have it all. With the addition of v3, Jacqui lost her giving a shit about zoning so that's out of the picture.
Krushing Blows that happen every match. Fast mids. Zoning and pressure. Safety all arround. Toolset that works on more than 90% of the cast, with minor whiffs.

Just watching all the tournaments and the tools should be self sufficient.

Following down to top10

Kitana - clear potential, haven't seen v3 used much yet but v2 is horrendous.

Frost - uber neutral control, safe special at -3 to cancel into from long range control without meter, and from pokes.
Zoning, and auger which is insane and she also keeps her -3 spin, no comment

Cage - Ultra solid character, very good toolset. However, dash 124, 2 staggers, 12 autoshimmies, and forceballs whiff on 12 chars out of 28. That's almost half.
He loses his +6 from forceballs and he can only get it from 124. But:
He can't use conditioning because instead of dash up 1, they have 18 extra frames to poke out or d2(1 is 7 which whiffs and 2 comes out in 11). This means just walkback poking and disrespecting his +6, if he gets it.
Outtake is much better here because of the safe special, but you still lose 2 staggers and 124 out of neutral, which is still big. This is a clear and the only reason he's not top5.

Nightwolf - Very good toolset and staggers, damage, and KBs.

Shang Tsung - his gap game got stronger from the KB nerf. 10 frame low combo starter or poke. Excellent zoning and his v3 smoke parry make him an all round powerhouse.

 

[Arqwart]

I'm gunna need an explanation as to why you think D'Vorah is top 10 right now. Don't get me wrong, she can be a fuckin MONSTER in Buzzed if she gets her setplay going; but I don't understand how that makes her top tier. I'd argue that Cassie, Jax, Kabal, and Noob are all above her and are better contenders for being in the top 10.

I've got no arguments against anyone else you've listed, though. It's so funny seeing Kitana suddenly breach the top 10 with brutal efficiency just due to a SINGLE special move. Razors is so terribly designed.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

The more time passes the less I'm convinced Cetrion is top 5. Yeah she has good AAs and strings but... Nobody plays her ! How can we be so sure that Cetrion is that good when that character is played so little ? I mean look at Geras, there's like 9 Geras per Top 8, and we know why he is very strong. Sonya has won 3 majors, including one with Sonya Ring Master mirror in grand finals. But Cetrion ? Yeah she won an online tournament with asodimazze and did some grandfinals with Dragon. But if we don't count these two pro players, there are no other Cetrion players that came to my mind (I think there was a good brazilian Cetrion at BGS but I don't remember his name).

There are some characters that are good enough to take Cetrion's spot.

So I'll say it, I don't think Cetrion is top 5

 

[Metin]

Cetrion's best move, her backdash.

 

[THTB]

Cetrion's best move, her backdash.

This.

If you don't have a good wavedash, good luck.

 

[M2Dave]

I think Frost is very good but I wouldn't put Cassie above her honestly, entirely to well rounded a character while Frost still has some holes

Cassie's best move, and arguably the best special move in the pre-patch version of the game, has been neutered. She was able to cancel any string into an amplified special move that switches sides. Now you are using meter to cancel into a move that always carries a risk. If someone as talented as Semiij cannot place top 8 with this character, I am not sure who can. Cassie is mid tier to me.

So did new variations affect the meta?

No, because most of the new variations are not tournament viable. The point is that the variation system remains flawed.

I'm gunna need an explanation as to why you think D'Vorah is top 10 right now. Don't get me wrong, she can be a fuckin MONSTER in Buzzed if she gets her setplay going; but I don't understand how that makes her top tier. I'd argue that Cassie, Jax, Kabal, and Noob are all above her and are better contenders for being in the top 10.

See my explanation in the first post. I stated that she is my most uncertain choice for the top 10.

The more time passes the less I'm convinced Cetrion is top 5. Yeah she has good AAs and strings but... Nobody plays her ! How can we be so sure that Cetrion is that good when that character is played so little ? I mean look at Geras, there's like 9 Geras per Top 8, and we know why he is very strong. Sonya has won 3 majors, including one with Sonya Ring Master mirror in grand finals. But Cetrion ? Yeah she won an online tournament with asodimazze and did some grandfinals with Dragon. But if we don't count these two pro players, there are no other Cetrion players that came to my mind (I think there was a good brazilian Cetrion at BGS but I don't remember his name).

There are some characters that are good enough to take Cetrion's spot.

So I'll say it, I don't think Cetrion is top 5

Cetrion's gameplay is not as straightforward as Geras's, Liu Kang's, or Sonya's, which is why she was initially considered to be low tier. She has no fast mid attacks, easy krushing blows, and okizeme after throws. She is top tier for other reasons and only a few select players have the ability to succeed with her.

 

[Shale101]

I am aware this thread exists, but the discussion is dead. From playing and watching the game, particularly what was seen last weekend at East Coast Throwdown, who do you think are the new and current top tier characters (i.e., the top 10)? Here is what I think at the moment (alphabetical order).

- Cetrion - self-explanatory.

- D'Vorah - I am not at all sure about this one. I am merely going by the fact that Sonic Fox appears to have dropped all of his former main characters except D'Vorah. I was originally going to add Jax to this list instead of D'Vorah. The hit range of the fatal blow being changed to a high attack is a significant nerf.

- Frost - the augers in the third variation add another layer of depth to Frost's strings and mid range game. Apparently, the augers do not jail all characters, though. Could she become another Show Stopper? Time will tell.

- Geras - self-explanatory.

- Jacqui - self-explanatory, but I would like to add that she is very well-balanced in terms of varations. All three seem to be very good.

- Johnny Cage - Outtake has become one of the very best zoning variations in the game. Show Stopper has superior offense and comeback potential, but EX forceballs still whiff on most female characters.

- Kitana - fixes to razors and a couple of universal buffs solidify Highborn as a top 10 variation. Maybe even top 5. The first and third variations have conspicuous weaknesses and are no better than mid tier.

- Liu Kang - f+4 has been changed to 11 frames, which is a noticeable nerf but not noticeable enough to drop from the top 10.

- Nightwolf - this character is simply very good at Mortal Kombat 11. Great low poke. Great jab string. Great throws. Mid strings are good but not among the best. Now Nightwolf just needs a fundamentally strong player to get results. Foxy, the floor is all yours.

- Sonya - self-explanatory

What do you think? Who are the new and current top tier characters?

KITANA maybe even top 5? gurlllllllllllll STOP reaching.............she has improved no doubt but lets not push it......

 

[Arqwart]

KITANA maybe even top 5? gurlllllllllllll STOP reaching.............she has improved no doubt but lets not push it......

It's less that Kitana is top 10 and more that Highborne is. Razors is ridiculous and easily one of the top 3 best specials in the game right now

 

[Wigy]

Frost's new variation is great but I don't know if her absolutely awful damage and krushing blows are made up for with the space control she gets

Her bnbs are about 26% for a bar midscreen which is garbage. B22 KB is crap damage and a free rollout outside the corner.

 

[appo]

wlan still beats everyone...

 

[xKhaoTik]

I don’t think Kitana is top 5 but I will not argue her (Highborn) being top 10. Her universal buffs really made this variation ridiculous lol

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don't agree with D'Vorah being top tier. I think she's good, but good and top tier are two different things.

If you notice, Sonic only plays her very situationally and in MUs where he feels safest.

I also just don't think "because Sonic plays her" is a good argument for placing a character into the top tier. What's her MU chart? Who does she beat, who does she lose to? We need to take another look at how we declare tiers.

 

[Tony at Home]

I don't see how Jax's nerf did anything significant to his standing. Jax's FB is good for the same reason Superman super move was good- you can't move when he has it loaded (and the ridiculous threat of the KB which it sets up after). I don't even consider a Jax player taking 60% from me to win off a sliver of health a "comeback"- just because the odds aren't even out of Jax's favor when he has that thing loaded

Cool, I can now whiff a D1 half screen and not die cuz it's high.... I still can't blink while standing and not get whiff punished into +30% followed by dealing with Jax at full heat. Making it a high didn't change that.

/salty rant

 

[DrFolmer]

Top 5 could easily be:

• Cetrion - Gozu movement, sick buttons. Does everything incredibly well
• Liu Kang - 2 frames on f4 is good deal in exchange for a lot of the whiffing issues corrected
• Geras - OKIIIIIIIIIIIII
• Jacqui - she lost some damage but come on, her damage was absurd in the first place. She's still a rushdown powerhouse and still plays an insane neutral
• Sonya - Lets be honest, she shouldnt have had that air extender in the first place. Her damage is still nuts. While Outtake is on everyones mind, she still has some of the best keepaway.

Not ordered. I was conflicted as to put Sonya or Johnny in the top 5, eventually chose Sonya over Outtake. He's annoying for many of the same reasons, however he doesnt kill you on two touches and still experiences detrimental whiffing issues against female characters. Outtake however does do well against the popular characters this meta, which earns Outtake a fairly high position. Showstopper is somewhere in the top 10.

Runner ups (this is the tough one):

Cassie - I dont know why she doesnt get talk. 2 frames on f4 and no more free shimmies from glow kick and she's suddenly trash? HELL NO. She's the footsie queen regardless spouting some of the absolutely best mids in the game. She also does well against the top tiers. We'll see how the nerf to Flawless Blocking affects her going forward

Nightwolf - Solid ass kit. Super solid pokes, mids, staggers, throw game and projectile game.

Jax - Hunker Down hasnt really changed. He went from top 3 to what now? Obscurity? Hell no, this character was always a top 10 candidate despite Johnny replacing him as flame of the month. Tons of KB's, stagger game is OD, d1 safe special shenanigans.

Kabal - Gapless kit, nuts throw game, super versatility, all variations are very viable, excellent mids, dat j2 tho

Noob Saibot - I don't know. I just feel Noob has a really strong fundamental kit with the changes to v2. A very honest playstyle that's not reliant on b11+3. The universal poke changes also did wonders here. Teleport is still kinda meh. Gets caught by projectile on reaction most of the time. He does have excellent neutral regardless

 

[Juggs]

Would it not be far more interesting to list the top tier characters + their variations? As in more of the top 10 variations. I think in games with multiple versions of the same character, a traditional list where you don’t specify their variation is pointless. But that’s just me.

 

[-Nachtmahr-]

Tbh, kabal is just a on paper top tier. Tons of Kabals but nobody wins? You are better off picking Baraka (berserker is a better clean cut), Nighty, or any of the cages if you like good neutrals tbh

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Why isn't Scorpion on that list? I thought according to this forum tele not being a mid anymore wasn't a big deal.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Would it not be far more interesting to list the top tier characters + their variations? As in more of the top 10 variations. I think in games with multiple versions of the same character, a traditional list where you don’t specify their variation is pointless. But that’s just me.

I think everybody knows the good variations of the top characters. We could list them, but imo it's kind of redundant unless you don't know which variation Sonyas play etc.

 

[Juggs]

I think everybody knows the good variations of the top characters. We could list them, but imo it's kind of redundant unless you don't know which variation Sonyas play etc.

That’s the point of a tier list, to help player who don’t know much. That’s really the only true use for them other than discussion. Because to go off of what you said, everyone already knows which characters are good and which aren’t so good, so why make a list in the first place? It’s to help newer players. So yeah, a variation tier list should be done.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Why isn't Scorpion on that list? I thought according to this forum tele not being a mid anymore wasn't a big deal.

He wasnt as good as people made him out to be even when it was a mid.

 

[Darth Mao]

The more time passes the less I'm convinced Cetrion is top 5. Yeah she has good AAs and strings but... Nobody plays her ! How can we be so sure that Cetrion is that good when that character is played so little ? I mean look at Geras, there's like 9 Geras per Top 8, and we know why he is very strong. Sonya has won 3 majors, including one with Sonya Ring Master mirror in grand finals. But Cetrion ? Yeah she won an online tournament with asodimazze and did some grandfinals with Dragon. But if we don't count these two pro players, there are no other Cetrion players that came to my mind (I think there was a good brazilian Cetrion at BGS but I don't remember his name).

There are some characters that are good enough to take Cetrion's spot.

So I'll say it, I don't think Cetrion is top 5

Sangue Frio

 

[JDE]

Top 5 could easily be:

• Cetrion - Gozu movement, sick buttons. Does everything incredibly well
• Liu Kang - 2 frames on f4 is good deal in exchange for a lot of the whiffing issues corrected
• Geras - OKIIIIIIIIIIIII
• Jacqui - she lost some damage but come on, her damage was absurd in the first place. She's still a rushdown powerhouse and still plays an insane neutral
• Sonya - Lets be honest, she shouldnt have had that air extender in the first place. Her damage is still nuts. While Outtake is on everyones mind, she still has some of the best keepaway.

Not ordered. I was conflicted as to put Sonya or Johnny in the top 5, eventually chose Sonya over Outtake. He's annoying for many of the same reasons, however he doesnt kill you on two touches and still experiences detrimental whiffing issues against female characters. Outtake however does do well against the popular characters this meta, which earns Outtake a fairly high position. Showstopper is somewhere in the top 10.

Runner ups (this is the tough one):

Cassie - I dont know why she doesnt get talk. 2 frames on f4 and no more free shimmies from glow kick and she's suddenly trash? HELL NO. She's the footsie queen regardless spouting some of the absolutely best mids in the game. She also does well against the top tiers. We'll see how the nerf to Flawless Blocking affects her going forward

Nightwolf - Solid ass kit. Super solid pokes, mids, staggers, throw game and projectile game.

Jax - Hunker Down hasnt really changed. He went from top 3 to what now? Obscurity? Hell no, this character was always a top 10 candidate despite Johnny replacing him as flame of the month. Tons of KB's, stagger game is OD, d1 safe special shenanigans.

Kabal - Gapless kit, nuts throw game, super versatility, all variations are very viable, excellent mids, dat j2 tho

Noob Saibot - I don't know. I just feel Noob has a really strong fundamental kit with the changes to v2. A very honest playstyle that's not reliant on b11+3. The universal poke changes also did wonders here. Teleport is still kinda meh. Gets caught by projectile on reaction most of the time. He does have excellent neutral regardless

As someone who mains Cassie, the reason why people are selling her shorter than before is because of mainly amplfied upglow kick being punishable now without needing meter to react. I don't think F4's change is what stops her. F4 was a good change to her. She shouldn't have been 0 after that anyway. -3 is good. They nerfed Ex glowkick to where people can flawless then punish to the point that the gap is very seeable. If they would've made it like -7 or 8 with the gap, they'd have to spend meter so she would just give up her turn even more, but it's -10 without strings, -14 with strings. She never really was "0". She was -4 after she amplified but people didn't like she had too much safety & viewed it as a "get out of jail free card".

I don't think it puts her far below to like B - or anything like Rewind although he has her at A (still though looking at his list he put her way lower than she should be imo like he put Kotal & Scorpion above her) & I think she still deserves to be like A+ to A somewhere, but her being top 10 now is definitely arguable. She can still throw people's timings off by shortening the strings & have the same pushback,. So it's easier said than done, but point is she takes more risks offensively.