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Strategy The Neutral Game (more discussion needed)

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
Yomi?! psh, who needs that? Just fight on instinct like a true warrior!! O:
 

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
Most characters have dash in punish "setups" by whiffing a move and buffering a special. Ex: MMH's pilliar= d1/f2, Aquaman's FTD= d1/ b12, Zatanna's ring or PM = s3, etc. So with this in mind, whats the best option for punishing forward dashes for every character? Im sure everyone has one.
That depends on the player I think. What's your favorite position to be in? You can use anything to punish a dash if you really know it's coming. Your character examples of Aquaman (usually just max damage) and Zatanna (setups/resets) also affect how they prefer to control a match.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
That depends on the player I think. What's your favorite position to be in? You can use anything to punish a dash if you really know it's coming. Your character examples of Aquaman (usually just max damage) and Zatanna (setups/resets) also affect how they prefer to control a match.
So wait, is it possible to react to forward dashes then?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
So wait, is it possible to react to forward dashes then?
its def possible at ranges to anticipate a forward dash yes.

Some aren't "reactable" in a sense that you can be thinking about something else and magically go "oh shit" and hit a d1 special link.

but when you're in that middle distance.... where a jump/dash is expected to close the gap.... then yes.

Even more so if you have a character like Superman/WonderWoman/Traited MMH who have a move that is safe AND covers a good portion of the screen in front of them.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
its def possible at ranges to anticipate a forward dash yes.

Some aren't "reactable" in a sense that you can be thinking about something else and magically go "oh shit" and hit a d1 special link.

but when you're in that middle distance.... where a jump/dash is expected to close the gap.... then yes.

Even more so if you have a character like Superman/WonderWoman/Traited MMH who have a move that is safe AND covers a good portion of the screen in front of them.
Are you talking about Superman's F2 or Flying Punch?
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Are you talking about Superman's F2 or Flying Punch?
f2

so if someone is in the range where you'd expect them to dash to cover distance... you'd basically be shifting to stay within reach of his f2 to catch them in the middle of the dash, or at the end. Because of the pure commital to a forward dash.... hovering in an area you know someone can't touch you is typically the best area to hover.

Typically people are going to not only commit to a dash... but also to a button press after the dash. This gives you a little more leeway to react and punish.

Superman has a good dealio when it comes to punishing dashes.... becasue he can Hit confirm f2~trait into HUGE damage, and it is also + frames.

Everyone has their own way to punish dashes in this nature. Some are just "better" at it than others.

btw... i'm purely basing this off watching matches from tournaments.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
f2

so if someone is in the range where you'd expect them to dash to cover distance... you'd basically be shifting to stay within reach of his f2 to catch them in the middle of the dash, or at the end. Because of the pure commital to a forward dash.... hovering in an area you know someone can't touch you is typically the best area to hover.

Typically people are going to not only commit to a dash... but also to a button press after the dash. This gives you a little more leeway to react and punish.

Superman has a good dealio when it comes to punishing dashes.... becasue he can Hit confirm f2~trait into HUGE damage, and it is also + frames.

Everyone has their own way to punish dashes in this nature. Some are just "better" at it than others.

btw... i'm purely basing this off watching matches from tournaments.
Are you sure? It seems like such a huge risk, F2 has like 33 recovery frames and even back dashing could lead to whiff punishing by a jump in. :\
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Are you sure? It seems like such a huge risk, F2 has like 33 recovery frames and even back dashing could lead to whiff punishing by a jump in. :\
you wouldn't be doing it on a guess

You'd be anticipating a dash at you... and reacting on that anticipation.

Some of the dashes are too fast to naturally react to without simply looking for them to happen. However, You can see the top players hovering in those zones waiting for someone to dash at them.
 
Fuudo spacing himself out of Adon's s.hk is no different or deeper than REO or Tyrant walking out of an attack string/special. Being aware of ranges and space characters can and can't control is a universal thing in fighting games. But you could argue it's more complex in games like Marvel where there's a lot more mobility and screen space to consider. And Injustice has interactables.

But I think what Protagonist means is you have to spend much more time at the mid-range and playing the ground game in USF4 than in a game like Injustice. Mostly because of the walkspeed that allows much more precise control of spacing. You kinda have to dash in, backdash and jump in Injustice a lot more. And since a lot of characters are either vortex chars or heavy zoners you rarely want to be at a range where you can't zone or can't pressure/vortex. But in SF characters are kind of encouraged to chill at that range and play that poking/whiff punishing/walking game or the "triangle of footsies".
 
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IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Sick looking gifs i would see the only rule is, it has to be practical im sure we all dodged and punish moves by pure luck
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Sick looking gifs i would see the only rule is, it has to be practical im sure we all dodged and punish moves by pure luck
Are you saying whiff punishing is pure luck? Just curious, based on how you worded this I'm a little confused by what you meant.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Are you saying whiff punishing is pure luck? Just curious, based on how you worded this I'm a little confused by what you meant.
lol no, i know it takes skill and can be done anytime, idot think we seen any yet but im saying for future Gifs to not be just some lucky whiff
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
This is why I always thought NW wasn't so bad. It is because he has a strong neutral game.

There is two parts here. The neutral game of your character and the neutral game of the player.

Tyrant is a master of his neutral game but his character has a weak neutral game. Superman has a strong neutral game and so does KDZ. That equals greatness.

I did one thing better than him and forever king at FR. I beat them by punishing their movement. And only that. And they moved too much so I was able to take advantage or that.
For a few seconds i though you were talking about NW, the i realized is not NW is NW hahaha, and i have to agree, NW do have a strong neutral game, i used to hate it because Roque used to be very good at his neutral.
 
Lol it really isn't
Maybe “deep” isn’t the right wording haha, but I do feel the level of thought that goes into the game, after the 5 or so years it’s been out, has really brought the game to a level very few fighters are able to achieve or see when it comes to high level play. I can’t refute what you said, but I do feel when I watch players like Snakeeyes, PR Rog, Haitani, Smug, Daigo, Infiltration, Fuudo, or even you, there’s a deep level of thought that goes into the neutral game, whether it be subconscious or not. Just my philosophy on it. :D
 
lol no, i know it takes skill and can be done anytime, idot think we seen any yet but im saying for future Gifs to not be just some lucky whiff
The majority of the whiffs showcased were (in my opinion) excellent reads and not luck. For example, in the first gif, Noobe was reluctant to dash in because he knew Theo would d1 into trident rush for chip which would further widen the life deficit.



He wanted to avoid this so he jostled in and out of aquaman's attack range. Theo's play style is to let players hang themselves (whiff an attack then punish) so noobe realized he wasn't going to attack so he baited him to attack instead. He walked forward, right at the point were he knew Theo would be pressured to press a button, and body splashed. Noobe made himself look vulnerable by walking forward and baited the attack by Theo, allowing him to safely jump in.

Snakeeyes did the exact same thing to PR Rog in the Norcal vs. SoCal battle as well. You can see that Snakeeyes walks right into PRrogs attack range and jumps knowing PRrog would want to poke the walk in attempt. The pressure of walking forward makes PRrog focus on the walk in than the jump in, allowing Snakeeyes to jump in safely.

 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
Maybe “deep” isn’t the right wording haha, but I do feel the level of thought that goes into the game, after the 5 or so years it’s been out, has really brought the game to a level very few fighters are able to achieve or see when it comes to high level play. I can’t refute what you said, but I do feel when I watch players like Snakeeyes, PR Rog, Haitani, Smug, Daigo, Infiltration, Fuudo, or even you, there’s a deep level of thought that goes into the neutral game, whether it be subconscious or not. Just my philosophy on it. :D
It's a lot of guessing. It's a level of reads in Street fighter, they just need to force people to do something, but that's limiting options using normals and such.

It's knowing ranges and knowing what option is the best. No one is forcing to do anything at anytime. It's just read after read after read. I think Injustice's bad walkspeed allows for random mashing of buttons that leads into 40% a lot of the time because people just dash in because walk speed is so bad. But the jump of snake eyez was him analyzing his risk/reward and even if Rog had anti aired with cr. fierce, he still would have been in the lead. It was very small risk/reward. He just did it. There was no focus on rog trying to sweep snake eyez out of the walk.
 
Are you sure? It seems like such a huge risk, F2 has like 33 recovery frames and even back dashing could lead to whiff punishing by a jump in. :\
Just as @NRF CharlieMurphy said, for character with safe dash ins, it would be done in anticipation. The safest normal to use to catch dash ins in my opinion are ones with quick startup and recovery (Superman d1/ doomsday d1, cyborg d1) so just in case they jump in you have a better chance to block the jump in attack.

F2 is good because it has really good range, so unlike supes d1 where your would have to be just outside dash in range, you have more room. Only issue is if they jump in (it's harder to react to a jump in when looking for a dash in....and vise versa) or you anticipate wrong and it whiffs leading to a potential whiff punish. It's personal preference so use which normal works best for you. :D
 

Vocket

Day 1 Phenomenal Teth-Adam Player
Most characters have dash in punish "setups" by whiffing a move and buffering a special. Ex: MMH's pilliar= d1/f2, Aquaman's FTD= d1/ b12, Zatanna's ring or PM = s3, etc. So with this in mind, whats the best option for punishing forward dashes for every character? Im sure everyone has one.
I think the best way to punish forward dashes is to d1~special. If they don't forward dash you just do the d1 without the special and it is hard to whiff punish since d1 has fast recovery for mostly everyone. Doing a safe special is probably better in case you press the d1 too late and they block. As BA I do d1~lightning hands and it is a great way to keep forward dashes in check.
 
Just want to say thanks for everyone that commented in this thread. I didn't think discussion would go this far, so I'm really glad to see this and hope more threads like this will pop up when MKX is released.

I think this thread has run it's course, but I plan on making another thread on injustice neutral game in the not to distant future. Hopefully when I get my school work done I'll have more time to play and level up as well. Thanks again everyone. [/end thread]