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The many wake-up options of MK11. An overblown complaint...

To me you should be able to u2,u3 roll. But only delay or no delay, none of this 5 different types of delay get up. Part of the reason I dropped the game was because of the wake up options. Mk11 is the first fighting game, out of the plethora that I’ve played, that I was downright terrified at times after knocking my opponent down. I’m all for os tactics and stuff but the game allows the defender way too many options.
 
Little interactions like reading a full delay buttons, going for a string for that meaty timing, they just wakeup jump, my string clips them then whiffs and they wakeup buttons kill me.

Just seems like a lot of ‘fuck it’ options that can blow up a bunch of things for no resources.
Hit a good point there, there are alot of matches where you can lose a match solely because the opponent made you whiff on wakeup because they wakeup jump 7 times then randomly delay wakeup.
 
I really like Tom’s idea of making forward roll cost an extra bar of meter, that way at least one of the options is less likely (though I would edit that to not cost the extra meter if knockdown came from a projectile). There really are too many wakeup options imo
 
My two cents (and I’m not a top level player by any means), the only wakeup option that I think is too strong is the forward roll. It’s more useful in the corner than a breakaway is anywhere on the screen imo. It hasn’t been used on me yet, but I’ve used it to switch positions with my opponent and land a full corner combo multiple times, and while I’ll always use the tools the game gives me to my advantage, i do think it’s OP for one bar with how fast this meter regenerates.
 
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Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
To me you should be able to u2,u3 roll. But only delay or no delay, none of this 5 different types of delay get up. Part of the reason I dropped the game was because of the wake up options. Mk11 is the first fighting game, out of the plethora that I’ve played, that I was downright terrified at times after knocking my opponent down. I’m all for os tactics and stuff but the game allows the defender way too many options.
That's an issue with you, not an issue with the game.

People that feel scared because of all the potential wake ups are the ones that get destroyed the most. You assume that every option has an equal probability of coming up and so you think ''omg it can be any one of those 9 options, I should block because im afraid to make a mistake''.
In reality you have to look at it like ''what is most likely going to come up"

If my opponent hasn't done an U3 thus far in our set, the probability of it (and by extension an U2) coming up are smaller than whatever else he's been doing.

Then you have to factor in the location on the map. If hes in the corner, the probability of a roll is much higher, especially if he's been there for a while and is getting impatient.

To freeze up in the face of all the options is precisely what you shouldnt do and why, I think, many people have an issue with the wake up system.
 
That's an issue with you, not an issue with the game.

People that feel scared because of all the potential wake ups are the ones that get destroyed the most. You assume that every option has an equal probability of coming up and so you think ''omg it can be any one of those 9 options, I should block because im afraid to make a mistake''.
In reality you have to look at it like ''what is most likely going to come up"

If my opponent hasn't done an U3 thus far in our set, the probability of it (and by extension an U2) coming up are smaller than whatever else he's been doing.

Then you have to factor in the location on the map. If hes in the corner, the probability of a roll is much higher, especially if he's been there for a while and is getting impatient.

To freeze up in the face of all the options is precisely what you shouldnt do and why, I think, many people have an issue with the wake up system.
lmao of course you take note of what your opponent is doing but any decent player will make sure to mix up their wake up options enough so that it isn't so predictable. There is a reason some pros have complained about this. Hell all those reasons you listed as to why you should expect a certain wake up are the exact reason I used to just do the opposite of that or even just jump.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
lmao of course you take note of what your opponent is doing but any decent player will make sure to mix up their wake up options enough so that it isn't so predictable. There is a reason some pros have complained about this. Hell all those reasons you listed as to why you should expect a certain wake up are the exact reason I used to just do the opposite of that or even just jump.
''Mix their wake ups'' lol i love that.
Human beings are creatures of habit. It's very easy to say, ''switch up your wake ups'' and actually doing it effectively. This idea that ''they can mix it up'' is a very self-defeatist way of looking at it. They can mix it up, but in what situation will they actually mix it up? If they mix it up, what's stopping you from mixing up your approach to them? People have a basic pattern of how they play and sure in some situations (like after being knocked down by a certain combo that you followed up with move X), they will change it up but most of the time, most players just fall back in their patterns.

And lets be honest, a move you will do to catch them on wake up can snuff more than one type of option.

And EVEN IF THEY DO MIX IT UP, you cant convince me that you are losing because of your opponent's wake ups, which you also have. If them waking up is an issue for you but they seem to block most of your wake up attempts, you're being outplayed. pure and simple.
 
''Mix their wake ups'' lol i love that.
Human beings are creatures of habit. It's very easy to say, ''switch up your wake ups'' and actually doing it effectively. This idea that ''they can mix it up'' is a very self-defeatist way of looking at it. They can mix it up, but in what situation will they actually mix it up? If they mix it up, what's stopping you from mixing up your approach to them? People have a basic pattern of how they play and sure in some situations (like after being knocked down by a certain combo that you followed up with move X), they will change it up but most of the time, most players just fall back in their patterns.

And lets be honest, a move you will do to catch them on wake up can snuff more than one type of option.

And EVEN IF THEY DO MIX IT UP, you cant convince me that you are losing because of your opponent's wake ups, which you also have. If them waking up is an issue for you but they seem to block most of your wake up attempts, you're being outplayed. pure and simple.
You are looking at this way to black and white. I never said I am losing because of it, but i definitely think the person who gets the knockdown shouldn't need to hesitate. They don't need to get rid of all the options, at the very least get rid of the multiple ways someone can delay wakeup, it should be you delay or you don't. Any half decent player will make sure to not be to obvious in their wakeups, even those with patterns will still try their best to minimize those patterns. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you know that the situations you outlined in which opponents will wake up a certain way don't always pan out that way, but if you understand that then I don't understand why what I am saying is so hard to comprehend. What options do I have as the offender when I knock my opponent down realistically? I can meatie, block, flawless block, jump and perhaps delay these options if I think they will delay. What options does my opponent have? u2,u3, the 9 or so different delay timings that has been shown, jump, wakeup buttons, and I am sure I am forgetting things. Can you think of another fighting game that gives the defender this many options? Sure I can option select to cover some of the wake ups I listed, sure I can try my best to see my opponents tendencies based off that but again if you think any half decent player is actually going to telegraph their wakeups so much that they have obvious patterns you are mistaken. Play any pro if you don't believe me, tryna be aware of all their options when you should be awarded for the knockdown is overwhelming.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
i definitely think the person who gets the knockdown shouldn't need to hesitate. I'm assuming you know that the situations you outlined in which opponents will wake up a certain way don't always pan out that way,
Personally, I rarely hesitate because I usually make up my mind with what I think my opponent will most likely do on wake up and I choose my response accordingly. You have to try to read your opponent.... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. If I read him correctly more often than not (i.e. he has a pattern), then his wakeup game will only contribute a small portion of the damage he inflicts throughout the match. Nothing is 100%.

What options do I have as the offender when I knock my opponent down realistically? I can meatie, block, flawless block, jump and perhaps delay these options if I think they will delay. What options does my opponent have? u2,u3, the 9 or so different delay timings that has been shown, jump, wakeup buttons, and I am sure I am forgetting things. Sure I can option select to cover some of the wake ups I listed, sure I can try my best to see my opponents tendencies based off that but again if you think any half decent player is actually going to telegraph their wakeups so much that they have obvious patterns you are mistaken. Play any pro if you don't believe me, tryna be aware of all their options when you should be awarded for the knockdown is overwhelming.
So you said it. the reality is that one of your options, for example, walking back to bait something, will counteract a lot of their options.
How many times do you knockdown your opponent in a regular 2 round match. For each of those situations, you have to look at the move you did that caused the knockdown, the location on the map, the meter situation for both of you, the amount of health left and the amount of patience the opponent has. All those elements play a role in the choice or the reflex of your opponent's wakeup choice. Saying pros dont telegraph their wake ups is a blanket statement, they will mix it more than the regular players sure but being ''overwhelmed'' by their wake up options, when you have the same says more about your play style than the opponent. Id be more overwhelmed by their pressure, their footsies, their awareness, than their wake up game.

Can you think of another fighting game that gives the defender this many options?
No and it doesnt matter. You're playing MK11. Adapt to MK11. Change the way you approach a knocked opponent to fit the reality of MK11. And if you can't then that's on you.
 
Personally, I rarely hesitate because I usually make up my mind with what I think my opponent will most likely do on wake up and I choose my response accordingly. You have to try to read your opponent.... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. If I read him correctly more often than not (i.e. he has a pattern), then his wakeup game will only contribute a small portion of the damage he inflicts throughout the match. Nothing is 100%.



So you said it. the reality is that one of your options, for example, walking back to bait something, will counteract a lot of their options.
How many times do you knockdown your opponent in a regular 2 round match. For each of those situations, you have to look at the move you did that caused the knockdown, the location on the map, the meter situation for both of you, the amount of health left and the amount of patience the opponent has. All those elements play a role in the choice or the reflex of your opponent's wakeup choice. Saying pros dont telegraph their wake ups is a blanket statement, they will mix it more than the regular players sure but being ''overwhelmed'' by their wake up options, when you have the same says more about your play style than the opponent. Id be more overwhelmed by their pressure, their footsies, their awareness, than their wake up game.


No and it doesnt matter. You're playing MK11. Adapt to MK11. Change the way you approach a knocked opponent to fit the reality of MK11. And if you can't then that's on you.
Bro lmao I hope you know it’s not like it’s the first time I’ve played the game, everything you’ve stated I’m aware of. I’ve been tryna reiterate to you that everything you’re saying is BEST case scenario, as in I think my opponent is going to do x so let me do y. But often times it just doesn’t work, you lose far more than a little health if someone’s choice of wakeup works because as you know assuming they landed the hit they are now plus and it’s your turn to guess. So of course the wakeups in the game matter, I gotta ask man have you played elder gods? Or gods before? I admittedly don’t play the game anymore due to issues like this we are discussing as well as other things in the game i dislike but, like yeah sure when I’m playing like Demi gods and below your strat works fine 90% of the time. But past that it becomes extremely difficult. I don’t care about the footsies, pressure etc that’s a lot more manageable but to me the wakeups are just wacky. For example say I try to meaty my opponent and they jump, depending on the move I used part of my combo could whiff and now I’m punished. Any other game if someone jumped on wake up they’d get meatied and I wouldn’t have to worry about getting punish for tryna do damage. If I recognize the timing for their delay guess what they can delay EIGHT different ways bro eight! Like do you not understand how wild that is? At this point I feel like we can just agree to disagree because it seems like I’m not going to convince you that wakeups I’m this game are broken, and you can’t convince me that they aren’t busted.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
If I recognize the timing for their delay guess what they can delay EIGHT different ways bro eight! Like do you not understand how wild that is? At this point I feel like we can just agree to disagree because it seems like I’m not going to convince you that wakeups I’m this game are broken, and you can’t convince me that they aren’t busted.
There are only two types of delayed WU's -- short and long.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Bro lmao I hope you know it’s not like it’s the first time I’ve played the game, everything you’ve stated I’m aware of. I’ve been tryna reiterate to you that everything you’re saying is BEST case scenario, as in I think my opponent is going to do x so let me do y. But often times it just doesn’t work, you lose far more than a little health if someone’s choice of wakeup works because as you know assuming they landed the hit they are now plus and it’s your turn to guess. So of course the wakeups in the game matter, I gotta ask man have you played elder gods? Or gods before? I admittedly don’t play the game anymore due to issues like this we are discussing as well as other things in the game i dislike but, like yeah sure when I’m playing like Demi gods and below your strat works fine 90% of the time. But past that it becomes extremely difficult. I don’t care about the footsies, pressure etc that’s a lot more manageable but to me the wakeups are just wacky. For example say I try to meaty my opponent and they jump, depending on the move I used part of my combo could whiff and now I’m punished. Any other game if someone jumped on wake up they’d get meatied and I wouldn’t have to worry about getting punish for tryna do damage. If I recognize the timing for their delay guess what they can delay EIGHT different ways bro eight! Like do you not understand how wild that is? At this point I feel like we can just agree to disagree because it seems like I’m not going to convince you that wakeups I’m this game are broken, and you can’t convince me that they aren’t busted.
I think there has been some miscommunication. We agree on a few things:
  • Does the wakeup system have flaws like too many options? Yes.
  • Is it stupid that when you meatie a jumping opponent you hit the first move but whiff the rest and get punished for it? Yes.
  • Have we both played elder gods and gods? Yes.
What I'm describing isnt a best case scenario. What Im describing is a way of approaching the wakeups in this game. Sometimes it goes in your favor and sometimes it doesnt. Im not referring to a best case scenario. Im not trying to provide a solution but a way to approach the wakeup system. I understand your POV, there are many options and that can feel overwhelming.
If, in other fighting games, a downed opponent means that you have a huge advantage and can go on the offense with no worries, in MK11, that's not the case. People can either try to approach the game like they do in other fighters (and get frustrated when it fails) or modify their approach for MK11's weird occurrences.
 
I think there has been some miscommunication. We agree on a few things:
  • Does the wakeup system have flaws like too many options? Yes.
  • Is it stupid that when you meatie a jumping opponent you hit the first move but whiff the rest and get punished for it? Yes.
  • Have we both played elder gods and gods? Yes.
What I'm describing isnt a best case scenario. What Im describing is a way of approaching the wakeups in this game. Sometimes it goes in your favor and sometimes it doesnt. Im not referring to a best case scenario. Im not trying to provide a solution but a way to approach the wakeup system. I understand your POV, there are many options and that can feel overwhelming.
If, in other fighting games, a downed opponent means that you have a huge advantage and can go on the offense with no worries, in MK11, that's not the case. People can either try to approach the game like they do in other fighters (and get frustrated when it fails) or modify their approach for MK11's weird occurrences.
I get you, yeah I’m not saying I don’t want them to have any options on defense, but at least make it so you can only delay or not delay, if they want to keep the other stuff whatever.
 
Bro it's been stated a hundred times, the wakeup system is garbage because it is too much guesswork and potential risk after you win in neutral. You're basically saying to just read your opponent which is a horrible argument because it is a situation where I cant enforce my advantage that I earned. Any player above God will be extremely random with their wakeups so it is no doubt that unless you play super safe on their wakeup that you will take damage from guessing wrong. And if you play super safe you allow yourself to lose your advantage and then it creates this scrubby scramble where after you successfully knockdown your opponent, they can wakeup buttons to put you in a guessing situation.

Basically it's impossible to read every option all the time and you can lose solely to the wakeup guessing.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
Bro it's been stated a hundred times, the wakeup system is garbage because it is too much guesswork and potential risk after you win in neutral. You're basically saying to just read your opponent which is a horrible argument because it is a situation where I cant enforce my advantage that I earned. Any player above God will be extremely random with their wakeups so it is no doubt that unless you play super safe on their wakeup that you will take damage from guessing wrong. And if you play super safe you allow yourself to lose your advantage and then it creates this scrubby scramble where after you successfully knockdown your opponent, they can wakeup buttons to put you in a guessing situation.

Basically it's impossible to read every option all the time and you can lose solely to the wakeup guessing.
Dont you dare making a read in a fightingame! :D
 

Error404

Noob
The wake up system wouldn't be that awful if you could give up damage/bar for a good restand / hard knockdown that disables some of the options.

But why bother giving players options and choices anyway . That's only for fun games.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Bro it's been stated a hundred times, the wakeup system is garbage because it is too much guesswork and potential risk after you win in neutral. You're basically saying to just read your opponent which is a horrible argument because it is a situation where I cant enforce my advantage that I earned. Any player above God will be extremely random with their wakeups so it is no doubt that unless you play super safe on their wakeup that you will take damage from guessing wrong. And if you play super safe you allow yourself to lose your advantage and then it creates this scrubby scramble where after you successfully knockdown your opponent, they can wakeup buttons to put you in a guessing situation.

Basically it's impossible to read every option all the time and you can lose solely to the wakeup guessing.
A lot of interesting points here, let me break it down:

It is indeed frustrating when you cant enforce your advantage when you knock down an opponent. And yes the wakeup system isnt perfect because, as you stated, you have a risk after you win neutral.

I want to address this idea that people can be random with their wakeups.
Human beings are incapable of being random. We are creatures of pattern and adaptation. Ask someone to randomly generate numbers and you can see that they will inevitably end up with someone kind of pattern. Wakeups are no different.
People may appear random though. Let me give an example:
  • P1 knock P2 down after a combo and then holds block, expecting P2 to wakeup attack (U3/U2/buttons). However, P2 rolls & gets the upper hand. If the next time P1 knock P2 down with that combo, P1 holds block again and they wakeup grab, you can't say P2 was random because both the roll and the grab are appropriate responses to someone blocking on top of you. I think we can agree that P2 read P1 in this case.
  • Let's say P1 learned from his first experience and the same situation arrives later in the match. Instead of blocking, P1 decide to grab since he expects P2 to roll again. Instead he is met with U3. Was P2 being random? Maybe P1 could say "Wtf you never wake up U3, thats so random!" but is it? Or did P2 figure that P1 would try to adapt to his previous mistake and that a grab was the most likely adaptation. In which case, many wakeup options can be used to deal with a grab. Using a U3 for the first time doesnt mean P2 was being random, he just took a risk on a read
P2 took a risk because P1 could have expected P2 to expect a grab. It becomes a mind game. Just like so many things in this game. And mind games comes with risks. Which is why I agree when you say "It's impossible to read every option all the time". Uncertainty is woven into the fabric of this game, you have to choose the most likely scenario. Your advantage may not be guaranteed, but their wakeup isnt either. This is the reality of this game. But given the choice, I rather be the one standing than the one taking the wakeup risk.

I also don't believe you can lose solely on wakeups. Someone randomly waking up isnt getting far and if they are, then they either are playing very defensive players or their pressure game and/or defensive game (poking out of the opponents pressure for ex) are better than the opponent's.

And if you're facing players that expect you to play it safe on their wakeup, then maybe that's when you shouldnt play it safe and take a risk.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
A lot of interesting points here, let me break it down:

It is indeed frustrating when you cant enforce your advantage when you knock down an opponent. And yes the wakeup system isnt perfect because, as you stated, you have a risk after you win neutral.

I want to address this idea that people can be random with their wakeups.
Human beings are incapable of being random. We are creatures of pattern and adaptation. Ask someone to randomly generate numbers and you can see that they will inevitably end up with someone kind of pattern. Wakeups are no different.
People may appear random though. Let me give an example:
  • P1 knock P2 down after a combo and then holds block, expecting P2 to wakeup attack (U3/U2/buttons). However, P2 rolls & gets the upper hand. If the next time P1 knock P2 down with that combo, P1 holds block again and they wakeup grab, you can't say P2 was random because both the roll and the grab are appropriate responses to someone blocking on top of you. I think we can agree that P2 read P1 in this case.
  • Let's say P1 learned from his first experience and the same situation arrives later in the match. Instead of blocking, P1 decide to grab since he expects P2 to roll again. Instead he is met with U3. Was P2 being random? Maybe P1 could say "Wtf you never wake up U3, thats so random!" but is it? Or did P2 figure that P1 would try to adapt to his previous mistake and that a grab was the most likely adaptation. In which case, many wakeup options can be used to deal with a grab. Using a U3 for the first time doesnt mean P2 was being random, he just took a risk on a read
P2 took a risk because P1 could have expected P2 to expect a grab. It becomes a mind game. Just like so many things in this game. And mind games comes with risks. Which is why I agree when you say "It's impossible to read every option all the time". Uncertainty is woven into the fabric of this game, you have to choose the most likely scenario. Your advantage may not be guaranteed, but their wakeup isnt either. This is the reality of this game. But given the choice, I rather be the one standing than the one taking the wakeup risk.

I also don't believe you can lose solely on wakeups. Someone randomly waking up isnt getting far and if they are, then they either are playing very defensive players or their pressure game and/or defensive game (poking out of the opponents pressure for ex) are better than the opponent's.

And if you're facing players that expect you to play it safe on their wakeup, then maybe that's when you shouldnt play it safe and take a risk.
You keep trying to explain that there's a mind game to it, but I think literally everyone here understands that. They just don't agree with how much it tends to favor the person on the ground from a game design perspective. Most people in this community don't seem to enjoy being at a slight advantage after knocking someone down, when offense in general just isn't all that strong in the grand scheme of things.

This really isn't an invalid opinion. Sure, we're playing the game for what it is, but that doesn't mean we have to like every aspect of it, and despite the people who cry when anyone complains about anything, I think it's important to voice your dissatisfaction with even core parts of the game. It certainly improved MK X towards the end with the armor, plus frames, 50/50, run cancel,chip damage nerfs, and breaker stamina changes.

Not that NRS would ever have the gumption to radically alter a game for the better again.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
You keep trying to explain that there's a mind game to it, but I think literally everyone here understands that. They just don't agree with how much it tends to favor the person on the ground from a game design perspective. Most people in this community don't seem to enjoy being at a slight advantage after knocking someone down, when offense in general just isn't all that strong in the grand scheme of things.

This really isn't an invalid opinion. Sure, we're playing the game for what it is, but that doesn't mean we have to like every aspect of it, and despite the people who cry when anyone complains about anything, I think it's important to voice your dissatisfaction with even core parts of the game. It certainly improved MK X towards the end with the armor, plus frames, 50/50, run cancel,chip damage nerfs, and breaker stamina changes.

Not that NRS would ever have the gumption to radically alter a game for the better again.
I see what you mean. I guess that advantage i get when I knocked the person down, even if slight, doesnt bother me but I can see why it bothers others. I was trying to present how I approach it so that it doesnt ruin my game experience. For some it might help, for others, not.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
A lot of interesting points here, let me break it down:

It is indeed frustrating when you cant enforce your advantage when you knock down an opponent. And yes the wakeup system isnt perfect because, as you stated, you have a risk after you win neutral.

I want to address this idea that people can be random with their wakeups.
Human beings are incapable of being random. We are creatures of pattern and adaptation. Ask someone to randomly generate numbers and you can see that they will inevitably end up with someone kind of pattern. Wakeups are no different.
People may appear random though. Let me give an example:
  • P1 knock P2 down after a combo and then holds block, expecting P2 to wakeup attack (U3/U2/buttons). However, P2 rolls & gets the upper hand. If the next time P1 knock P2 down with that combo, P1 holds block again and they wakeup grab, you can't say P2 was random because both the roll and the grab are appropriate responses to someone blocking on top of you. I think we can agree that P2 read P1 in this case.
  • Let's say P1 learned from his first experience and the same situation arrives later in the match. Instead of blocking, P1 decide to grab since he expects P2 to roll again. Instead he is met with U3. Was P2 being random? Maybe P1 could say "Wtf you never wake up U3, thats so random!" but is it? Or did P2 figure that P1 would try to adapt to his previous mistake and that a grab was the most likely adaptation. In which case, many wakeup options can be used to deal with a grab. Using a U3 for the first time doesnt mean P2 was being random, he just took a risk on a read
P2 took a risk because P1 could have expected P2 to expect a grab. It becomes a mind game. Just like so many things in this game. And mind games comes with risks. Which is why I agree when you say "It's impossible to read every option all the time". Uncertainty is woven into the fabric of this game, you have to choose the most likely scenario. Your advantage may not be guaranteed, but their wakeup isnt either. This is the reality of this game. But given the choice, I rather be the one standing than the one taking the wakeup risk.

I also don't believe you can lose solely on wakeups. Someone randomly waking up isnt getting far and if they are, then they either are playing very defensive players or their pressure game and/or defensive game (poking out of the opponents pressure for ex) are better than the opponent's.

And if you're facing players that expect you to play it safe on their wakeup, then maybe that's when you shouldnt play it safe and take a risk.
Your whole point is based on a myth, by the way. Humans, although marginally and rarely, can be random. Absolutes make absolute fools.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Your whole point is based on a myth, by the way. Humans, although marginally and rarely, can be random. Absolutes make absolute fools.
I did find a study that humans seem to be able to generate random numbers ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15922090/ ) but is the ability to generate random independent numbers equivalent to randomly waking up in MK11. Im not convinced and I dont think anyone has an actual answer for this.

Furthermore, if you are saying that this is marginal and rare, I think that your point is inconsequential in the context of MK11