The House of El : (1.06) Superman General Discussion Thread

[Endeavor]

EDIT by xQUANTUMx : Kyle Rayner I moved the discussion here for obvious reasons. 30 pages of old stuff doesn't help us now. Carry on.


Alright guys, I'm a resident lantern, and I have to admit, I ended up picking up supes due to more than a few things,
1) I hate him.....so if I hate him, other people must hate him.
2) I needed and alt, to deal with Raven
3) (AND MOST IMPORTANT) Dat NEW 52!!!
But as I started to learn more and more about the character I actually began to like him, I'm even having more fun with him than lantern. So I have been working with him for a while now, and I must admit after the patch I was kind of like, oh these nerfs aren't that bad, but I'm starting to feel like he has no pressure mid screen, since f23's range nerf after playing a long set with in casuals offline against my friends WW. I was thinking of using instant air dash jumping 2 after breath but that doesn't seem like the best option so I was wondering what everyone has been doing to keep pressure now that F23 after breath is all but dead. Also has anyone else noticed that f2d13 dose not come out on block, or was it always that way?

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

Alright guys, I'm a resident lantern, and I have to admit, I ended up picking up supes due to more than a few things,
1) I hate him.....so if I hate him, other people must hate him.
2) I needed and alt, to deal with Raven
3) (AND MOST IMPORTANT) Dat NEW 52!!!
But as I started to learn more and more about the character I actually began to like him, I'm even having more fun with him than lantern. So I have been working with him for a while now, and I must admit after the patch I was kind of like, oh these nerfs aren't that bad, but I'm starting to feel like he has no pressure mid screen, since f23's range nerf after playing a long set with in casuals offline against my friends WW. I was thinking of using instant air dash jumping 2 after breath but that doesn't seem like the best option so I was wondering what everyone has been doing to keep pressure now that F23 after breath is all but dead. Also has anyone else noticed that f2d13 dose not come out on block, or was it always that way?

I'm still trying to find a way to keep pressure midscreen. I've been doing more standing 3's into trait, I've been canceling a lot more F3's to try to bait them and see what they do, and more F2's into trait. Definitely have to think a lot more now. I definitely think he's become a wiff punisher more than anything.

Also, F2D13 has never come out on block. I don't know why the frame data shows advantage on block for that.

 

[Endeavor]

I'm still trying to find a way to keep pressure midscreen. I've been doing more standing 3's into trait, I've been canceling a lot more F3's to try to bait them and see what they do, and more F2's into trait. Definitely have to think a lot more now. I definitely think he's become a wiff punisher more than anything.

Also, F2D13 has never come out on block. I don't know why the frame data shows advantage on block for that.

Yea, I hate that it doesn't come out. I have been doing f23, d1. Sometimes I like to do f23, s3, but from what I saw of his frame data, his s3 is negative on block which I don't understand cause I was under the impression that s3 was plus on block, sometimes I do neutral j2 to catch people that try to poke out, but its a lot harder now to keep pressure.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Alright guys, I'm a resident lantern, and I have to admit, I ended up picking up supes due to more than a few things,
1) I hate him.....so if I hate him, other people must hate him.
2) I needed and alt, to deal with Raven
3) (AND MOST IMPORTANT) Dat NEW 52!!!
But as I started to learn more and more about the character I actually began to like him, I'm even having more fun with him than lantern. So I have been working with him for a while now, and I must admit after the patch I was kind of like, oh these nerfs aren't that bad, but I'm starting to feel like he has no pressure mid screen, since f23's range nerf after playing a long set with in casuals offline against my friends WW. I was thinking of using instant air dash jumping 2 after breath but that doesn't seem like the best option so I was wondering what everyone has been doing to keep pressure now that F23 after breath is all but dead. Also has anyone else noticed that f2d13 dose not come out on block, or was it always that way?

You can actually still use the standard F23 After Breath if you walk a bit, but you can still pressure with Superman you just have to think carefully. For example if I do F23xxBreath and if they back dash I will do a flying punch to catch them. So they will have to worry about back dashing. Though I been in the lab messing with some pressuring options. You need to involve trait in your game.

some pressuring ideas:

F2~trait, F23~breath
3~trait, 223, F23~breath
3~trait, 11, F23~breath

So it good to know his frame traps as it is important because you won't need to just rely on F23.

And to answer your last question F2d13 always been like that the 3rd hit would not come out if blocked. Even so Superman don't really need it as when F2d13 hits there many options you can do afterwards.

 

[M-Aran-X]

You can actually still use the standard F23 After Breath if you walk a bit, but you can still pressure with Superman you just have to think carefully. For example if I do F23xxBreath and if they back dash I will do a flying punch to catch them. So they will have to worry about back dashing. Though I been in the lab messing with some pressuring options. You need to involve trait in your game.

some pressuring ideas:

F2~trait, F23~breath
3~trait, 223, F23~breath
3~trait, 11, F23~breath

So it good to know his frame traps as it is important because you won't need to just rely on F23.

And to answer your last question F2d13 always been like that the 3rd hit would not come out if blocked. Even so Superman don't really need it as when F2d13 hits there many options you can do afterwards.

wait, isn't 223 unsafe and fully punishible after 3?

 

[Endeavor]

wait, isn't 223 unsafe and fully punishible after 3?

Not fully punishable but it is negative on block.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

wait, isn't 223 unsafe and fully punishible after 3?

Unsafe? Nope as it is only -2 on block. 112 is unsafe though, but if you use 223 it is safe.

Also to all Superman players check out this thread if you have not already:

http://testyourmight.com/threads/superman-the-godliness-of-standing-3.37491/

 

[Endeavor]

You can actually still use the standard F23 After Breath if you walk a bit, but you can still pressure with Superman you just have to think carefully. For example if I do F23xxBreath and if they back dash I will do a flying punch to catch them. So they will have to worry about back dashing. Though I been in the lab messing with some pressuring options. You need to involve trait in your game.

some pressuring ideas:

F2~trait, F23~breath
3~trait, 223, F23~breath
3~trait, 11, F23~breath

So it good to know his frame traps as it is important because you won't need to just rely on F23.

And to answer your last question F2d13 always been like that the 3rd hit would not come out if blocked. Even so Superman don't really need it as when F2d13 hits there many options you can do afterwards.

Yea I know that, about the f23, and the flying punch for the back dash, but I'm having trouble getting in range for f23 now without getting stuffed.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Braindead and F23 jokes aside (they dont apply that much anymore) there are different styles of superman play now. Being overly aggressive with F23~breath will no longer reward you as much. I have decreased the use of F23 as an offensive tool a lot (compared to before, doesn't mean I dont throw it out). Remember that they messed with the hitbox, not the startup frames, so it is still one of the the best, if not THE best punishing strings in the game. Like Gurimmjaw said, he's got other pressure options that allow him to either be neutral, or plus on block (1, 11 etc). Cancel this into trait (you should have trait often, it still regenerates fast) and you are more plus on block. If they are pressing buttons, hit confirm, full combo punish. And you are traited, so it's going to hurt them. The block strings beyond f23 breath allow him to build meter as well which is a good thing since superman is a little bit more meter dependent now (depending on the match). Using J3 is a good option for follow up as well, its plus on block and leads to a nice chunk of damage when hit confirmed into combo. I dont know how much it's plus on, but I put lex on reversal CC in practice and a J3, 3~trait beats it.

I feel that they declawed him a bit midscreen, but when you do actually bait and punish correctly the punish is rewarding. Now, I'm no KDZ or EMPEROR_THEO, but post patch I've actually had more success kind of laming it out a little bit midscren, and picking and choosing when and where I counter attack. Calculating the heat vision and heat zap to get them to move closer or away or as a counter zoning tool (yes you can do this). The Importance of corner carry is huge now. This is where superman can still be a bulldog and mess up his opponents. This also allows for a little creativity on when you choose to IAGS to reset the opponent. You'll also need to think outside the box a bit as F23~breath loops dont work on every one (e.g. Ares). The corner is its own metagame and you need to focus on containment and high damage. I'm still having an issue on what to do against teleporters...There may or may not be a solution, and if there aren't he will have a lot of difficulty beating them... (just my luck I pick the new subzero of the game....at least supes hits harder)

 

[Gurimmjaw]

If you are having trouble getting in range Kyle Rayner then use B23 so you will be in range for the F23. I haven't had a problem getting in range for F23.

Superman needs to be played differently now. And a lot of his good stuff will involve trait. Don't rely just on F23xxBreath. We need to use trait canceling. Superman's F23 is still really good and can punish your opponents.

3~trait will play an important role in his game, some have no idea the greatness behind this. Not only that but I got some good stuff similar to it may not be a frame trap like this but still useful what I got going. So keep in mind don't just use F23xxBreath but use pressuring options that involve the trait. VERY USEFUL!!!

EDIT: xQUANTUMx you need to close the old Superman threads for general discussion and match up discussion man. We got 2 match up threads and 2 general match up discussions.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

are you spying on me??? I was closing them and I just read your edit. GET OUTTA MY HEAD! lol

 

[Endeavor]

Alright thank you all for your help, I'm gonna have to go experiment with it cause I usually do f23xxtrait but now a lot of people are starting to poke out of that on reaction. I was thinking of using f23, s3, trait and see how that works out. I was also wondering what the frame data on 1,1 is and if it's a mid or high.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Alright thank you all for your help, I'm gonna have to go experiment with it cause I usually do f23xxtrait but now a lot of people are starting to poke out of that on reaction. I was thinking of using f23, s3, trait and see how that works out. I was also wondering what the frame data on 1,1 is and if it's a mid or high.

F2xxtrait is better than F23xxtrait but use both. I have also been doing F23 and then standing 3 into trait but beware not to throw that out a lot but you will at least be in range to do a standing 3 after the F23 which will set up some nice frame traps.

the second hit in 11 is a mid and the first hit in 1 is a high. 11 is 10f and has a block advantage of 2 so make use of that if you want.

 

[Yashiro Aniki]

may i ask?
isn't cool down of trait not that short??
because i can't dependent on the trait in each offense string i go for it...

 

[xQUANTUMx]

may i ask?
isn't cool down of trait not that short??
because i can't dependent on the trait in each offense string i go for it...

His trait requires some management, but not as much as say, batman. Save your trait for the big punishes and/or for the corner where you can squeeze out every bit of damage that you can. You can also still trait full screen and chuck lasers while you lame it out (but beware: you will receive hundreds of hateful messages for doing so) if you have the life lead.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

may i ask?
isn't cool down of trait not that short??
because i can't dependent on the trait in each offense string i go for it...

It recovers quickly so it don't that much time. It not like Doomsday's.
You can still depend on it. You can't just rely on F23xxBreath anymore.

 

[Endeavor]

I'm sure this is already known but I could find anything on it, in the forums, but Superman has an ambiguous otg GS reset midscreen off of b3, j3. depending of where he hits the j3 the GS will cross up or not cross up.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Very hard to time, especially online. But yes known. Depending on how close to the corner you are, you can connect a f23 into MB freeze after. You can also do this off of f2d13 if timed correctly, as a crossup. Use the m sparingly midscreen unless you can take a punish if they guess correctly or are willing to risk 'resetting' the situation

I like that you're messing with him in lab though and finding this stuff for yourself. Keep working at it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Endeavor]

Very hard to time, especially online. But yes known. Depending on how close to the corner you are, you can connect a f23 into MB freeze after. You can also do this off of f2d13 if timed correctly, as a crossup. Use the m sparingly midscreen unless you can take a punish if they guess correctly or are willing to risk 'resetting' the situation

I like that you're messing with him in lab though and finding this stuff for yourself. Keep working at it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Thank you, his GS resets are like half the reason I love playing with him. There are hard to do, but they are worth it when they hit, I have to hit the lab with @Emperor Theo to learn more about the character and things but I really am enjoying him, even though I hate superman as a DC character, I really like his IGAU counter part. And I have been working with doing it off of f2, d13, however that one is very hard for me to do. I'm trying to learn the "KDZ" special as I like to call it which is, the off of b3, f3, dash up GS. That one also gives me trouble. And it not that hard to time, I found that it crossing up or not depends on the high that the j3 connects with the persons body. If the j3 connects with the head or top of the persons face, it crosses up, if it connects with the persons waist, it does not cross up.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

What have you guys been doing lately to open people up? given the fact that he has no real high lows that actually catch people anymore (unless they aren't paying attention).

 

[Everlast]

What have you guys been doing lately to open people up? given the fact that he has no real high lows that actually catch people anymore (unless they aren't paying attention).

Nothing more than before. I do try to throw more which does help. I have been really working on SM footsies and being way more patient plus his good mobility allow me to see more mistakes and capitalize. I get more time outs but I find myself winning them. I truly think the most important thing for SM players is to slow down and pick your spots and use his mobility to stay out of danger. IMO.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Nothing more than before. I do try to throw more which does help. I have been really working on SM footsies and being way more patient plus his good mobility allow me to see more mistakes and capitalize. I get more time outs but I find myself winning them. I truly think the most important thing for SM players is to slow down and pick your spots and use his mobility to stay out of danger. IMO.

I've been playing this way a lot, even before patch. I must have been in batman mode, which probably doesn't favor him much anymore

 

[Everlast]

I've been playing this way a lot, even before patch. I must have been in batman mode, which probably doesn't favor him much anymore

Agreed. Good luck. I will try to help with anything I can.

 

[Endeavor]

So does every one pretty much think that rush down superman is dead? I sort of feels like it. I try to work in more f2 xxtraitxx1,1 for frame advantage.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

same. I like to pick stages with bounce interactables because I can extend my meterless damage (high 30's low 40's) and 1 bar with trait up to 52%.