The Deadshot Debate.

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I know it's coming, so I'm gonna start it.

I think they need to leave Floyd alone.

I've played Deadshot since my birthday in July. He's one of my favorites.
Mainly because I mained Deathstroke for all of Injustice 1.
My business in fighting games is fighting with bullets, and knowing my fighters.

There is nothing about Deadshot that breaks this game.
Nothing NRS games haven't done before.
Nothing that, while tedious at times, is beyond the pale of fighting game cheese.
If they didn't want him to be so obnoxious, they should've built him differently.
Don't blame the construct for the poor choices of his builders.

Harley, Fate, Starfire, Superman, Bats, Red Hood, Supergirl, Lantern to an extent, fucking JOKER...there are a lot of characters who can keep up with the zoning game in this game.
I may not be able to do much of anything, but I won't sit idly by and let one of the only characters in this game I really really dig get buried because of top players doing what they have to to win.

It's the Alien mirrors all over again.
When two major heads go at each other, they don't give a fuck how cheap they have to be.
You want to be loyal? Or do you want to win?

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Why is this a thread? Lol. Your logic is so awful. I guess no characters should ever be touched and we should have a broken game cuz that's how NRS wanted them to be.

How about they expect a character to turn out one way and they don't expect the character to be so much better than everyone else or don't expect certain tools to be so abusable so rebalancing them is a good idea? Yeah? Okay then

 

[FLA_Anarquisto]

@TheGangstaFace is correct, high shot is brain dead and he shouldn't be that lethal up close as well. Not to mention DS quick recovery will allow him to chip away carelessly but also have meter advantage to open up opponents or armor through pressure.

 

[Damaja325]

deadshot needs a damage buff and high shot should be a mid.

 

[CrazyFingers]

This isn't a debate. The character is a problem.

 

[Juggs]

He's probably one of if not the only character that could receive a nerf at this point. He benefited the most from the balance patch, because a lot of the characters that could deal with him got toned down.

I don't think he's a broken character, just a little too good compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Yeah I mean Deadshot players claim he has a few bad MUs but all we saw today was Deadshot getting counterpicked with... Himself!

Even if his potential bad MUs are actually bad I doubt Catwoman or Flash beat him anything worse than 6-4.
His MU chart is extremely good also considering he really mops a loot of characters.

With that said, I think he is fine if that makes sense, the only time I had a problem watching were the Deadshot mirrors, I think he is a very interesting character and I hope they don't overnerf him because at this point he has a guaranteed nerf coming at him pretty much, at least after today. Those grand finals made the game look bad tbqh and we all know NRS hates that.

 

[DC4-3]

His up close game needs another nerf/slap on the wrist. His zoning is fine, but with how good it is we shouldn't have to work our way in just to get 50/50 staggered to death.

 

[DubiousShenron]

Doctor Fate v Deadshot is poop. It's a testament to how braindead deadshot is when he beats the other dedicated zoning character, for FREE.

I'm tired of people counterpicking me with deadshot cause I play Fate and i feel it's a potential candidate for worst mu in the game

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Make his B1 hit mid and reduce the meter build by half in all his special moves

 

[Jynks]

look at ECT, nearly EVERY player used Deadshot at some point in that top 8... that tells you something.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I still wouldn't touch him, but that's only because I'm biased.
And don't get me wrong, I know there's no way they'll let this stand.

That being said, I still don't understand how this design made it through QA.
Deathstroke's old pop pop straight shot with the regular humane recovery would have been fine.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

TL; DR - WAY less meter. Harder to put you full screen. Fewer chances to guarantee mb low rifle.

I think he needs tweaks. Not necessarily outright nerfs, but tweaks. I'm also a proponent of balancing with fun and engagement in mind, and his design is a fun killer for the guy duck walking forward for 95% of the match only to get whacked back full screen off *any* touch.

If I were in charge, I feel like his meter build needs to GO. Its INSANE that he can build that much meter while putting that much offense on the table. It's just crazy to me. This is , I feel, the number one issue with DS. The build on whiffed projectiles needs to be gutted. We talk about intelligent zoning being a completely acceptable playstyle, and it is, but the insane meter build he gets from just mashing, coupled with the EXTREME ease and safety with which he can bullet-hell the screen is just silly. It's nuts that you after all the work you do to get in and all the life you lose.in the process, he's still at 2x the meter and ALWAYS has it to air escape, mb roll, whatever he needs. You have to do SO much work to get in on him, while building no meter at all outside the passive build from being shot in the eye.. so when you get on, poof, he's outa there and the process begins anew. Which leads me to my next point -

- it shouldn't be so easy for him to put you full screen/almost full screen. Even when you get in, no matter what he hits you with, you're back out. So if you manage to wade through the bullet hell, and hit him enough that he blows his meter on air escapes and rolls and you STILL get on top of him.. now he has options that hurt you, make you guess and restart the whole loop. Once I'm in, he should have options to get me away again, but it shouldnt be off EVERYTHING.

And finally, I feel like he should have fewer ways to jail into MB low rifle and it should resolve faster, making it more easily avoidable for a larger portion of the cast. I'm not saying he should have no way to guarantee MB low rifle, just that it should be harder to guarantee.

So in short, his meter build needs to be gutted. Not slightly reduced or altered, but significantly changed. It needs to be slightly more difficult for him to put you back to full screen and Mb.Low Rifle should harder to guarantee and MAYBE have reduced active frames, making it more easily avoidable if used poorly.

These may not be anywhere near what needs to be done, but to ME it SEEMS like this would keep his extremely oppressive zoning in place and maintain the power and fear it can instill. Essentially his offence remains in tact, he just has to make choices now with his meter (does he use it for damage and maybe risk it on a mb low rifle or does he save it for escape options) and play smarter with his chip from low rifle and once an opponent is in, he has to work a little harder to get them back out.

I can ABSOLUTELY see cases for totally different changes, to frame data, to damage, to entire strings and moves, etc.. but I feel like this preserves the spirit of the character, it just rewards rewards smart play and more heavily punishes yolo dumb shit.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Remove his F2 overhead and make B1,2 a mid instead of overhead

 

[untitledsix]

At this point is not even a question of balance. It's a question of the quality of the game.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

At this point is not even a question of balance. It's a question of the quality of the game.

That's true.
I wouldn't be crushed if they adjusted him, I just don't want to see him go the way of Cyber Sub-Zero in MKX or IJ1 Scorpion and have their viability completely unmade.

But it's never gonna not be a thing in this game.
Just like Deathstroke before him.
He's built like Cyrax: a leaky boat.
His bullets are pocket change, and he'll always find a way to make a dollar.
Which is a confusing way to say that it feels like he was literally designed to be a bullet hell troll.
He's like trap music, or Jurassic Park. Or both.
They thought too much about if they could and not at all about if they should.

 

[FL Rushdown]

So your argument is that yes he's poorly designed but we shouldn't change him because it would destroy his original admittedly shitty design? I don't get it.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

So your argument is that yes he's poorly designed but we shouldn't change him because it would destroy his original admittedly shitty design? I don't get it.

My argument is I don't want to see him changed drastically, especially not only half a year into the game.
My worry is that, because of how much of a pain in the ass he is design wise, it's going to be really difficult to find a sane way to balance him out without hurting his overall capability to an overdone degree.
And it bugs the fuck out of me that not only was he designed so goofily to begin, but it was done so when they already had Deathstroke and all his woes (and to an extent Erron Black and what he accomplished) as templates for what not to do when designing your bullet hell character.

 

[STB BroZki]

Lmfao

 

[ATL Jones Bro3]

He should get adjusted unless we want our game to embarrass itself on national television in October.

 

[Tweedy]

He's more cancer to the game than any MKX character. People can say "ah you just don't like zoning bro", all they want but he literally 7-3s every zoner besides Green Arrow who he probably 6-4s.

Bdon has to use Supergirl to make top 8(vs Iluusions) because maining all Fate is impossible with Deadshot in the game. He probably doesn't even know who Supergirl is but he's just like "hey let me avoid this possible 2-8".

Where would Cyborg be at if Deadshot didn't exist? You guys aren't gonna be ready for what he does to "Tanya/Alien DLC" Starfire.

Deadshot downplay has been meme worthy since release. You'd get in and they'd unreactable 50/50 you while saying "what you know about this zoning kid". The character has the best tools because "lack of damage", while he's literally chipping away at you and making up for that lack of damage all game.

There's gonna be a lot of Deadshots and a lot of characters that can fight Deadshot at IPS finals, like Catwoman, Supergirl, Black Adam, Flash, Brainiac. He really narrows the cast and we're gonna see that more and more. I was talking to an IPS finalist earlier and he said "man if I don't play Deadshot or use Catwoman for Deadshot idk if i'll make Eleague".

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

He's more cancer to the game than any MKX character. People can say "ah you just don't like zoning bro", all they want but he literally 7-3s every zoner besides Green Arrow who he probably 6-4s.

Bdon has to use Supergirl to make top 8(vs Iluusions) because maining all Fate is impossible with Deadshot in the game. He probably doesn't even know who Supergirl is but he's just like "hey let me avoid this possible 2-8".

Where would Cyborg be at if Deadshot didn't exist? You guys aren't gonna be ready for what he does to "Tanya/Alien DLC" Starfire.

Deadshot downplay has been meme worthy since release. You'd get in and they'd unreactable 50/50 you while saying "what you know about this zoning kid". The character has the best tools because "lack of damage", while he's literally chipping away at you and making up for that lack of damage all game.

There's gonna be a lot of Deadshots and a lot of characters that can fight Deadshot at IPS finals, like Catwoman, Supergirl, Black Adam, Flash, Brainiac. He really narrows the cast and we're gonna see that more and more. I was talking to an IPS finalist earlier and he said "man if I don't play Deadshot or use Catwoman for Deadshot idk if i'll make Eleague".

Now I'm having Kabal flashbacks and almost feel bad for even being a Deadshot player.

This is why I'm mad he exists how he is to begin with.
Of all the other characters with a great polarizing strength (ie, Bladam's damage, Bats' J2, etc), his seems like it should've been the easiest to avoid when they built him, but it may be the biggest pain in the ass of them all over time.
So now, it's nuke a character for the good of the meta or leave him be and let things sour.
That's lame.

 

[Jynks]

I still can not even understand how this guy got past the development stage. 1 day in the wild of full release and we all knew the score.. how did NRS let this guy live in the 1st place.

He really narrows the cast and we're gonna see that more and more.

+1 for truth

 

[Vigilante24]

Reduce his meter build, remove all overheads except F3, and increase gap sizes in B12u3 string you can MB B3 thru them. Let him keep his zoning but his up close game needs to be underwhelming. Right now he can still pressure you to death.

 

[Jynks]

The argument could be made that NONE of this Deadshot stuff is a problem.. and that the problem with this game and ALL nrs games is the MASSIVE CHIP. Imagine what the game would be like if Chip was not an issue, and zoning was all about spacing and opening people up.

Like maybe the design is fine, but once you add the global chip values the designes become broken.