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Breakthrough The Bat Vortex (Incomplete)

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING SET-UP IS VERY EXECUTION HEAVY. IF YOU ARE NOT A BATMAN MAIN, OR ARE NOT WILLING TO PRACTICE, THIS WILL NOT BE USEFUL FOR YOU.

For a long time now, it has been said that Batman, unlike the rest of the cast, has no true 50/50. For the longest time I believed this. With the help of @NRF Everlast, I have found out that this isn't true.

Batman DOES have a true 50/50, and it involves the Glide Kick.

Oh Glide kick, has anyone ever really given you any respect? Here you are, a "divekick" in the most loose of senses, and you generally go unused.

Well, not anymore!

The basic concept is this: After any combo ending in MB Grapple, if you perform a Nj2 into an instant-air Glide Kick 2, you have the option to very slightly delay the kick so that it crosses up. The guess comes in the form of whether or not the Glide Kick 2 will cross up or not.

The timing on hit is a bit more strict, but Glide Kick 2 links into any block string and can start a brand-new combo.

An example of what a vortex combo would look something like this from a notation standpoint:

J2, b113, 123, b2 xx MB Grapple. Nj2, iaGK2, any combo start afterwards.

So, what can you do with this? Assuming you have two bars of meter you can perform any combo that ends in MB Grapple(the straight version, mind you) and with the Vortex you can start them into an entire new combo and end in another MB Grapple to start the whole situation over again.

I have tested this to an extent. I've found that you cannot d1 or d2 between the NJ2 and the instant Glide Kick 2. What you have to realize though, is that this is a very execution-heavy set up, It requires a lot of practice. However, if you do the Glide Kick IMMEDIATELY after the NJ2, they have to guess. The timing between the cross-up delay and the normal one is strict, but doable.

What I haven't been able to consistently test is whether or not backdashes can blow this up, or Supers. Mostly because I have no offline human being to test with. However, I believe that if they do try to attempt and your timing is correct, they will still get hit by the Glide Kick 2.

Based on what I've been able to test, I think that it is possible to do this off of MB Batarangs and Trait Cancels as well. Most likely doing this off of those options in the corner is most ideal, especially since whatever combo you use can be ended in Up Grapple to put them back into the corner. It probably requires some conditioning on the part of the Batman player to set up off of those options, since most opponents are used to holding "down" or continuing to block after the Cancel/MB Batarang. In THEORY, there is no reason why (at LEAST in the corner) you can't use this as well as other options if we assume that your execution is exact.

A Caveat: I know that this is very execution heavy and seems like it is impractical. However, as our execution as a community gets better and we practice this, I see no reason at all why this can't be a Bread and Butter set-up. Also, this is only an option. If you create fear in the opponent of this option, it opens up other things to do after a MB Grapple such as moving them closer to the corner with dashes, Darth Arma's Call Bats ambiguous cross-up, etc.

Here's the thing: I have no means to test my MB Batarang and Trait cancel theories offline. So I turn to you, the Batman community for help. What I need to confirm is whether or not this is backdashable, and whether or not you could conceivably do this off of MB Batarang and Trait Cancels. I do think that MB Batarang is more likely than trait cancels, at least mid-screen.

Also it is worth noting that when using Lex Corpse Charge as a tester for punishment, you need to remember that the AI does the move on the first available frame, which means a regular human may have more difficulty punishing this.

And speaking of punishment: I am very aware of how punishable Glide Kick 2 is. It is punishable on block from almost any point EXCEPT if you hit their knee. Having just tested with Lex, I was able to block the Charge after landing GK 2 and having it hit his knee. So this leads me to believe that if Glide Kick 2 is done at its lowest point, it is safe. Or it could be. I could be wrong on that one, too.

@FOREVER KING
@HomeLee1121
@AK/RM GamerBlake
@DarthArma
@KRYS9984
@RapZiLLa54
@Perfect Legend
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@SemiEvilRyu

I hope this helps
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I have no ability to record.
I also have no one offline to test some of my theories with, which is why I am hoping we Batmen can come together and work out all the kinks. I do believe it is completely viable, it just requires more work initially. Once the execution is down, we could end up doing this as easily as anything else.

Again, I am sorry for bringing up incomplete information, but my resources here are limited.
 

Vagrant

Noob
What I need to confirm is whether or not this is backdashable,

Having just tested with Lex,
Yeah backdashes are the biggest question initially looking at this. But set it up in training mode. Play as whoever you want and then set the AI to record and record the setup. Then try to backdash out.

Also I know lex's hitbox is huge so test the safeness against other hitboxes.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
It is viable but you don't want it to be a true 50/50 with just the Glide kick. I use this often but with Glide Kick to stay in front or a j2 to cross over after ending with a NJ2. Unfortunately the Glick kick is full combo punishable.

Here is some video from BPK

Go to the 6:26 mark

I've also discovered a safe 50/50 vs the big characters. Same set up except a j1 stays in front and a j2 crosses over due to their large vertical hitboxes.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Sinestros axe is a mid and his vortex still works...
Because you have to watch out for an overhead as well. Crouch block doesn't cover both options like it does with this. There is literally no guess.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
Because you have to watch out for an overhead as well. Crouch block doesn't cover both options like it does with this. There is literally no guess.
Thats why you mix it up with dive kick and j2 cross over like I posted. This is exactly like Sinestros except obviously the dive kick can be punished.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Thats why you mix it up with dive kick and j2 cross over like I posted. This is exactly like Sinestros except obviously the dive kick can be punished.
So can't you just hold DF after the J2 and wait to see what the Batman player does? It should block instant dive kick, delayed dive kick, b1. Then you can adjust for a j2 or f3 if you see it.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Thats why you mix it up with dive kick and j2 cross over like I posted. This is exactly like Sinestros except obviously the dive kick can be punished.
Yeah. It's not like Sinestro's were he can wait until almost the height of the jump to decide his option so it's ambiguous. There's going to be a pretty big difference in instant air dive kick vs full cross up j2.
 

Everlast

KTG | EVERLAST
Yeah you can choose to do the J2 cross up to condition them to stand block which should allow this setup to work better.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Divekick is a mid so they can just crouch block both options. I can only really see this working if you have a way to condition them to block high.
I've been able to hit them when they crouch, but it is probably a hitbox thing. I usually default with Lex, so against someone like Catwoman it may not work.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
I've been able to hit them when they crouch, but it is probably a hitbox thing. I usually default with Lex, so against someone like Catwoman it may not work.
He means crouching blocks in both directions since Divekick isn't an overhead.
 

RapZiLLa54

Monster Island Tournaments
So can't you just hold DF after the J2 and wait to see what the Batman player does? It should block instant dive kick, delayed dive kick, b1. Then you can adjust for a j2 or f3 if you see it.
Definitely could, pretty tight window though.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
He means crouching blocks in both directions since Divekick isn't an overhead.
Oohh. That's true. But, as I tried to state in my post, preparing to avoid this set-up can open you up to other follow-ups after the NJ2.

The idea is that this is one option among several, and that in doing this you add another read they have to make.

Am I making any sense? I could very well not be.
 

TH3DISTURBED1

"Never say 'never'
Oohh. That's true. But, as I tried to state in my post, preparing to avoid this set-up can open you up to other follow-ups after the NJ2.

The idea is that this is one option among several, and that in doing this you add another read they have to make.

Am I making any sense? I could very well not be.
I see it as another option to keep them guessing on what's going to happen. Once people become better at seeing it and this has been around more, it will probably be more of a gimmick than a vortex imo
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Honestly, there really isn't a reason to use this over the Arma setup. Works the same way, and there's really no risk if they guess right.
 
Honestly, there really isn't a reason to use this over the Arma setup. Works the same way, and there's really no risk if they guess right.
I use this set up that rapzilla mentioned earlier in this thread, and according to the atlanta guys, so does reno racks. Its a good option if you don't have a bat to call out. However it is extremly risky to do the dive kick if your opponent knows that it's negative bajillion on block.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
What I'm wondering(and its something i need to look into) is how unsafe it is depending on how low the kick hits. I'm sure that say, a Glide Kick 2 that hits chest level is more unsafe than one that hits lower. Needs more looking into.