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The Argument Against Normalized Throws

How do you prefer the throws to function?

  • Strong (Mortal Kombat X)

    Votes: 75 51.4%
  • Normalized (Beta Mortal Kombat XL)

    Votes: 71 48.6%

  • Total voters
    146

Matix218

Get over here!
It's kind of funny to be opposed to the 50/50 meta and then argue in favor of a 50/50 that's still a 50/50 regardless of the beta change.

I just don't get why throws should be 50/50s at all. MK is the only game where they are. why?
IMO because in a game with a block button you want throws to be strong. It is harder to open people up in a game with a block button because there are no ambiguous crossups so having throws be stronger makes sense. Now ill admit it is not as big of an issue for some characters in mkx due to the amount of characters that have some form of overhead/low mixups but I still think it is good that throws are powerful. In mk9 it was essential to have throws be strong because it was much harder to open people up in that game which had fewer oh/low 50/50s. Im fine with them adding a couple of frames to the tech window but if they remove the 50/50 guess element you will see throws go from strong to worthless very quickly (especially since they are increasing the window)
 

Matix218

Get over here!
it's not even an higher risk to duck throws, it's the exact same risk, with the difference that you eliminate the 50/50 part and you get an higher reward by full combo punish it.

teching: higher risk / low reward
ducking: high risk / higher reward
I agree with this. If you read throw just duck and if you are right you get to blow them up.
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
Hi, I'm new so it'd be great if anyone can answer these questions please as they pertain to this thread.
1) What's the difference between a "strong" throw and a "normalized" throw?
2) How do you "tech" a throw in MKX?
3) What do you guys mean when you say throws are 50/50?
1) There is more time to tech the throws in the enhanced online version of the game than there is in the current version.
2) Teching refers to escaping the throw after it's been done to you. There is a very small window to do so (in the current version of the game), so you have to be waiting for it (you have to "read" it). You have to press certain buttons (see answer to question 3) just when you're being grabbed in order to escape.
3) To throw backwards, you have to press the throw button (or 1+3) and back or nothing at the same time. To throw forward, you have to press the throw button while holding forward. Tapping front punch or front kick will let you escape a throw backwards, while back punch and back kick will let you escape a throw forward. So, since you gotta make the right decision as to whether your opponent will try to throw you forward or backwards, it's a 50/50.
 
If that were true about see them and react to, throws wouldn't be nerfed to teched into one button in Tekken 7, but only regular throws though.
You're probably right. These were Tekken veterans telling me this when I played TTT2. Until I realized it was a copy and paste of previous Tekkens and quit playing lol.

But I never saw how they could react. Could've been B.S. I don't know. I do think Injustice's throw teching was a little too easy but that's me.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Have any of you guys actually tested throw teching in the Beta? A friend and I tested it for a good while, and I feel literally zero difference between the window of the current build and the Beta.

Is there any solid proof that there even is a larger tech window?
It 100% is

I put a video up proving it and 16bit basically confirmed it
 

Israel

Noob
The current version, throws are pretty much guarenteed. (And when i say guarenteed, i mean once i grab you, i know its not going to be broken.)

Its unreasonable to be able to pretty much react with the proper button like on the EXACT frame of the grab, damn near seems. Its only fair that your opponent has a large enough window to react with a REASONABLE response (still a quick response). And its still a 50/50 throw at that...

So i disagree, and its not that big of a deal... If your gameplan was to use grabs to get 50% or over health per round now you have to try and mix it up a bit.
 
There's a lot more to argument #1 than what is stated in a single sentence, like how defensive characters are getting a universal buff with the breaker change and some specific buffs like Kenshi. Also saying that a nerf to throws nerfs zoners more than rushdown after its been out for 2 weeks is as large of an assumption as saying Tremor is abysmal. Mixups/block pressure are not superior to throws, they are situational and synergize each other even if throws are seldom used there is always the threat. Foxy isn't the only player using throws. DJT and Scar account for less than 1% of the player base, and they are god like.
 

Bruno-NeoSpace

They see me zonin', they hatin'
Throws have allegedly been normalized. According to reports, the escape window has been increased by an unknown amount of frames, permitting throws to be escaped easier. I think this change is abysmal for the following reasons.

1. Almost all zoning and defensive characters (i.e., Balanced Kenshi, Cybernetic Kano, Hish-Qu-Ten Predator, Royal Storm Kitana, etc.) lack 50/50 mix ups and thus rely on throws and staggered strings to create offense.
Very simple, buff other things of these characters, like strings, normals and special moves to make their offensive better.

2. All vortex characters rely on 50/50 mix ups to break down opponents while all command throw characters rely on command throws to break down opponents. The point is vortex characters and command throw characters do not benefit from strong throws because they have superior mix ups.
They might not benefit from strong throws but it still is more than a 50/50.

3. People in the community have the image stuck in their heads of Foxy throwing opponents over and over again in the corner. Remember that Kung Lao's pressure has been normalized because the advantage on the EX hat spin has been reduced.
Naaah. I Play Liu Kang and I always throw my oponents EVERYTIME. Seriously, it is very easy. And even when I play Kenshi, I throw my oponents eveytime. Low poke into throw is a god damn thing :p

4. People in the community could not escape throws online because of lag. With the implementation of the enhanced online gameplay, this issue ought to be fixed.
I play a lot offline with some friends, and it is the same thing about the throw. Watch the matches between SonicFox and Reo in the Beta so you will see that the throws still are difficult to tech.

5. High level players escape throws fairly well. As seen on stream, strong players like DJT and Scar are known to escape throws consistently.
Prove it. Post the link of the matches.

The reality is that strong throws help characters with weak mix ups. They do not affect characters who already have good mix ups. Characters whom some people consider to have an overpowered throw game are being normalized in the beta. I personally think throws have been normalized so scrubs can finally escape throws and feel good about themselves, yet a fighting game should rarely ever be changed based on the lowest level of play. Revert throws to how they are currently in Mortal Kombat X.

Agree or disagree?
Strong throws help all characters. An example of strong throws benefiting a very strong character, Liu Kang (Dragon's Fire):
Using F2,1,3 into FBRC (+14 at this moment) I can do A LOT of things:

1 - F4 (10f low combo starter)
2 - B2 (14f overhead knockdown)
3 - Keep the pressure with other normals and strings
4 - Throw forward
5 - Throw backward

Throws was TOO strong - 12% damage (2% damage was guaranteed even If the oponent techs it), 50/50, big hitbox, plus frames on hit, very fast and small window to tech.

Get the facts.
 

Death

Noob
I agree with throws need to be strong. But in the beta I havent really noticed a huge difference. They are a bit easier to tech but still very viable. I always thought teching wasnt the answer to throws. If you make the read on the throw why not just neutral duck it and full combo punish??
 
IMO because in a game with a block button you want throws to be strong. It is harder to open people up in a game with a block button because there are no ambiguous crossups so having throws be stronger makes sense. Now ill admit it is not as big of an issue for some characters in mkx due to the amount of characters that have some form of overhead/low mixups but I still think it is good that throws are powerful. In mk9 it was essential to have throws be strong because it was much harder to open people up in that game which had fewer oh/low 50/50s. Im fine with them adding a couple of frames to the tech window but if they remove the 50/50 guess element you will see throws go from strong to worthless very quickly (especially since they are increasing the window)
Pressing back to block is NOT any harder than pressing a block button. That has never been true. Ever.

SF4 has a ton of characters without OH / Low mixups. They win majors. Throwing is still strong in that game. Tell me how JWong or Ricky have trouble opening people up with Rufus eventhough he doesn't have OH/Low starters.. please.

Throwing needs to be a 50/50 if there aren't OH / Low starters is a line of logic predicated on an assumption that isn't true. There is precedent to prove otherwise.

Throws would still be strong even if teching them wasn't a stupid guess. They are good in SF4 / SFV. They are good in KI. They are good in every game where they aren't 50/50s.

The window change / added frames don't matter that much. The directional guessing is the dumbest thing that's still in this game.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Pressing back to block is NOT any harder than pressing a block button. That has never been true. Ever.

SF4 has a ton of characters without OH / Low mixups. They win majors. Throwing is still strong in that game. Tell me how JWong or Ricky have trouble opening people up with Rufus... please.

Throwing needs to be a 50/50 if there aren't OH / Low starters is a line of logic predicated on an assumption that isn't true. There is precedent to prove otherwise.
I NEVER said that pressing back is any harder than pressing a block button but if you press back to block it opens up a whole new world of mixups (that being left and right mixups). On ambiguous cross up attacks in a b2b game you must guess to press left or right because you don't know which side the ambiguous crossup will hit on. If you have played any b2b game you should already know this.
 
I NEVER said that pressing back is any harder than pressing a block button but if you press back to block it opens up a whole new world of mixups (that being left and right mixups). On ambiguous cross up attacks in a b2b game you must guess to press left or right because you don't know which side the ambiguous crossup will hit on. If you have played any b2b game you should already know this.
So you didn't say that it's harder to press back to block but then you're going to explain to me why it's harder to press back to block?

Not everyone that's viable in those games has an ambiguous cross over. Throwing is still good. They don't have a problem opening people up without ambiguous cross overs OR OH / Low starters, but throws are still strong.

the point is, throws are not worthless if you can tech them without guessing. Would they be less strong if you could read it and tech it right? Of course they would. Would they be worthless? Not even close to it at all. If that were true, a tick throw in any otehr game wouldn't ever connect. That's obviously not how it works.

Not to mention the absolute stupid guess can be set up in MK by using block strings that do chip damage on normals.

MK throwing is stupid.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
So you didn't say that it's harder to press back to block but then you're going to explain to me why it's harder to press back to block?

Not everyone that's viable in those games has an ambiguous cross over. Throwing is still good.
You are not getting this so I'll try to simplify it for you...

It is not "harder" to press back vs. Pressing a block button. That is obvious.

But in back to block games there is a whole new type of 50/50 mixup added to the game in addition to having tick throw mixups and overhead/low mixups and those are ambiguous crossup (left vs. right) mixups. If you think that not many characters in Capcom games that are b2b and even in NRS' s own Injustice have many setups for ambiguous cross up 50/50s you are kidding yourself.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
@General M2Dave is on to something. I say we buff the throws.

From now on, the thrower chooses 1,2,3, or 4 after he throws the opponent. The person being thrown should have to guess which button they pressed to tech the throw on a 1f timetable.
BRING MKDC THROWS BACK

Throws should not be easy to tech but the reward for teching should be greater. You should be very positive if you tech a throw so you can start your own pressure.
This is the best way to balance it IMO. What'd be best for teching rewards is some or all of: {Frame advantage, no damage penalty of 2%, meter gain}

It's kind of funny to be opposed to the 50/50 meta and then argue in favor of a 50/50 that's still a 50/50 regardless of the beta change.

I just don't get why throws should be 50/50s at all. MK is the only game where they are. why?
This is false, Soul Calibur also has 50/50 throws, difference is that they're avoidable by crouch block.
 
You are not getting this so I'll try to simplify it for you...

It is not "harder" to press back vs. Pressing a block button. That is obvious.

But in back to block games there is a whole new type of 50/50 mixup added to the game in addition to having tick throw mixups and overhead/low mixups and those are ambiguous crossup (left vs. right) mixups. If you think that not many characters in Capcom games that are b2b and even in NRS' s own Injustice have many setups for ambiguous cross up 50/50s you are kidding yourself.
This is what you're not getting. You can't say that pressing back to block isn't any harder and then in the same breath explain that there are more mixups to be concerned with directionally in those games. "It's not harder; you have more mixups to deal with when there's ambiguous cross ups because there's both left and right and overhead and low."

That sentence is a contradiction. you don't get to say it's just as easy but then contradict that stance by explaining what makes it harder. If you don't think having to deal with those other directional mixups is harder (which apparently you do despite what you've said), then why are you using it as an argument in favor of 50/50 throws because it's not as easy to open people up without ambiguous cross overs? I understand what you're saying just fine.. You just don't understand what you're implying.

Again look at the example of rufus. He doesn't have an ambiguous cross over, so back to block doesn't matter in this example, meaning you don't have to worry about the left / right directional mixup. Good so far? He also does NOT have OH / Low mixup starters. Still got it? Even with those things being true, he does extremely well in majors. High level players have no problem opening people up, and he has one of the strongest throw setups in the game.

Lack of Back to block and OH/Low mixups are not suitable arguments to support throwing being a 50/50 in MK.

I didn't say there weren't characters in capcom games that had ambiguous cross overs. I jsut said that the ones that don't do not struggle to open people up or even tick throw people the way you're suggesting they would with similar mechanics in MK. Rufus shouldn't ever be able to hit or throw anyone at all if what you're saying was true.
 
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